View Poll Results: What if a Minister refuses to perform gay ceremony?

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  • Should be allowed to refuse.

    92 98.92%
  • Should be forced to perform.

    0 0%
  • Should be stripped of license.

    1 1.08%
  • Should be arrested.

    0 0%
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Thread: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

  1. #231
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    You do know the US is not Canada or subject to Canadian law?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Another source.

    The Canadian Parliament recently passed Bill C-250 which amends the federal hate crimes law to include speech against sexual orientation. Some Canadian groups have complained about it, saying even the Bible could be seen as hate literature. What's wrong with what was passed?

    O’Brien: A number of aspects of the new law are profoundly disturbing. For one thing, there already exists in Canadian law abundant protection of human rights, including protection against discrimination on grounds of "sexual orientation." What is distinctive about the new law is the criminalization of negative criticism of homosexuality as such.

    While the bill was in formation in Parliament two crucial amendments proposed by the conservative opposition party were defeated. The first was to ensure that religious pastors and teachers would retain full freedom to teach traditional Judeo-Christian view on these matters. The second was an attempt to make a distinction in law between homosexual persons and homosexual activities. The Church does not condemn homosexuals as persons; it condemns sinful activities--activities that are not only an offense against God, but are destructive of the person, as well as society in the long run. In rejecting these two amendments, Parliament simply decreed that henceforth any public criticism of homosexual activity is a hate crime against homosexual persons, punishable by jail sentences.

    Has there yet been any practical affect to what has been passed?

    O’Brien: The ink is still wet on the document, and there has been little time to bring many law suits. For the time being we’re in the eye of the storm, a temporary calm. I think there is a widespread drawing back as journalists, teachers, and pastors ponder their options. At the same time activist homosexual groups are bombarding a number of pro-family, pro-life organizations in this country with mockery and threats, planning strategies (in open forums) for silencing all opposition, warning that those who don’t keep silent on homosexuality will go to court, and to jail. The high level of emotional violence in homosexual activist strategy is at times quite shocking. They seem consumed with hatred and determined to bring about an entire social revolution in their favor.

    I should add that during the past two years a number of significant "human rights" law suits have been brought against traditional Christians, litigation that predates the new hate crimes law. The courts generally have sided against the churches and individuals who do not want to cooperate with the "gay agenda." For example, a printing company that declined to print Toronto’s annual gay pride day literature was sued under the human rights law, fined heavily, and forced to print the material or close their business. A Catholic school was coerced by a court order to admit an openly homosexual teenage boy and his older male lover to the school prom; the court also refused the school board permission to cancel the prom. A daily newspaper that published an advertisement page of Biblical quotes regarding homosexuality was fined. Such incidents are multiplying.

    Is this another slippery slope issue? How far can this reach in terms of what alleged crimes might be committed or who might be protected by it?

    O’Brien: Potentially very far. The law can be used primarily to further intimidate the timid and to punish the outspoken. We now have Thought Crime in Canada, just as Orwell predicted. Few people believe this could be the beginning phases of an Orwellian 1984 or alternatively a softer form of totalitarian government such as Huxley’s Brave New World. But the elements of State-enforced social reconstruction are now in operation. We should also consider the fact that in just over one generation we have been shifted from a society in which homosexual activity was a crime under the then existing law, to a society in which homosexual activity has become a government-protected and fostered activity, while voicing criticism of it has become the crime. I see this as a prime example of the new totalitarianism. Clearly, we have now arrived at a situation in which "some of us are more equal than others", as Orwell predicted.

    In its hate propaganda provisions the law states that in order to be found guilty of an indictable offense, a person must communicate statements in a public place which "incite hatred against an identifiable group" in such a way that there will "likely be a breach of the peace." The courts have already proven their startling subjectivity on homosexual issues. A breath of protest from a Christian is a hate crime, while aggressive disruption of Christian gatherings by gay militants are often overlooked and go unprosecuted.


    A whiff of Germany in the early 1930’s is discernible in the atmosphere. Of course, glancing about our streets we do not see any concentration camps or marching jackboots. But will the prisons some day hold Christian inmates whose only crime is speaking the truth? And as for jackboots, activist homosexual groups have behaved like Nazi hooligans of the late1920’s and early 1930’s, for example their recent outrageous behavior at Archbishop Adam Exner’s residence in Vancouver.

    Many of the terms in the new law are largely undefined, such as "sexual orientation," "inciting hatred," "a likelihood of breach of the peace" and thus there is an ambiguity so broad that one could drive a battleship through it. It will be left to the courts to do the dirty work of interpreting, condemning, and imprisoning. They have already proved themselves quite willing to do so, and the new law offers them added incentives.

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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You do know the US is not Canada or subject to Canadian law?
    They're trying to bring Canadian Health Care here. Who knows what could be next?

  4. #234
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    The first source is a paranoiac blogger.

    Canada's Hate Crimes Legislation | Challies Dot Com

    "About the Author

    I am a follower of Jesus Christ, a husband to Aileen and a father to three young children. I write books and blogs for fun while doing web consulting for a living. I worship and serve at Grace Fellowship Church, edit Discerning Reader and am a co-founder of Cruciform Press."

    The second source is no more enlightening.

    Thought Crime Becomes a Reality in Canada
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

  5. #235
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Oh my gosh, no, I didn't mean to imply that you agreed with me at all. In fact, I assumed that you disagreed with my sentiment about religion in general. However, I didn't think that you would have "liked" my particular post if it had been saying that religion should be curbed by some legislative means. I would have thought that any argument along those lines would have had to be far more developed for you to have 'liked' it for it's thoughtfulness.

    To be frank, I did come to the conclusion that you liked the post because you liked the fact that I don't want to legislate my own personal views regarding religion. I see now that I might have been wrong on that count, though you haven't said either way. If I did put words in your mouth, I do also here apologize :-)
    I don't believe religious believes or lack of religious beliefs should be legislated. Everyones right to a religious belief or to NOT have a religious belief should be respected and legally protected.
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  6. #236
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    They will argue that churches cannot prevent people from exercising their "fundamental right" to marry.
    Or something.
    How can a Church deny this?
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  7. #237
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    How can a Church deny this?
    Declining to perform a service is in no way preventing people from excercising their other options for a provider of such a service.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #238
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    How can a Church deny this?
    They can't. It's a non-issue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #239
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I don't believe religious believes or lack of religious beliefs should be legislated. Everyones right to a religious belief or to NOT have a religious belief should be respected and legally protected.
    You do understand that I completely agree with you, and that my post that you quoted is saying that, right?

    I think that people should understand how committed to religious freedom liberals generally are, including the atheist ones. I believe that freedom of conscience is one of the most important freedoms we have. I will argue irreverently and with enthusiasm against religion in the public discourse. I dislike religion. But if people are ever forced to support a religion or dogma they disagree with, or are barred in any way by anyone from religious practices that affect only people who are consenting to it, or are prevented from proselytizing, I will be there, supporting religious people all the way. Your freedom to practice your religion is very important to me. I cannot emphasize that enough. And I am pretty sure I am the norm, more or less, for atheist liberals.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  10. #240
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    Re: What if a Minister refuses to perform a gay wedding ceremony?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPC View Post
    They're trying to bring Canadian Health Care here. Who knows what could be next?
    You need evidence and not wild leaps. By your logic, we're going to force ministers to marry all hetrosexuals who want to be rmarried or we're denying them their rights. Hasn't happened. Ministers deny marrying people all the time.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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