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Are you proud to be an American?

Are you proud to be an American?


  • Total voters
    58
I think America is a good country to live in compared to most, but I'm not exactly proud to call myself one.
 
It's astonishing the lengths you will go to, to avoid admitting that America is at least a pretty good country and those who live here have reason to feel pleasure/satisfaction (ie pride of association) that they do.

The only way that's true is if you wish to compare America to the category I haven't been using - the third world. If you're dealing with the first world, we don't look very good. From personal experience, we aren't very good. And I've been very specific about that through-out, and made the extremely obvious concessions about living in the developed world simply as an investment of trying to nip time-wasting and ridiculous statements like the one above before they happen. Oh well. I tried.

So if you think my "lengths" are overdone, then your complaint is mostly that I'm not including Ethiopia in my personal analysis. Your position must be pretty weak if that's the kind of place I need to compare it to. It's like being a pro-athlete and thinking it's unfair unless you get to play a kiddie team, you know, just to even things out.

If your analysis comes out differently (which I think would be difficult - of all the sources in this thread, there is exactly one that supports that, that I've seen), or if you're just happy not to be in Ethiopia and that's good enough for you, great. But it doesn't take any particular lengths if that's all you got. Evidently the tidal wave of American ex-pats agree. I'd be one myself if there weren't so many people I cared about still here (though several are considering leaving themselves, and they are all over the political map save the far, far right), and if that weird American passion and our unique degree of freedom of speech didn't make me so hopeful.
 
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I know that everybody here has their differences and that we rarely all agree on something, but as it is, do you think that America is a wonderful country and are you proud to be an American?

I, for what it's worth, am proud to be an American.

Of course, I love the Republic. Now if we can just do something about the government.
 
That is the point. There is a certain level of societal collapse at which it doesn't help. Interventionism at that level of dysfunction is a band-aid over a bullet hole. Same reason I think our cycle with Iraq is so stupid - it's the same concept on a deeper scale.

They need to do this themselves. Notice how the Arab Spring has hit the least or not at all in the countries in which we intervened in beforehand, or have been involved in an on-going hat change with their government, and yet their circumstances are no better.

...but it does help. All the things cited would be a great service. I don't think any of those things are stupid at all, and there are many organizations that can accommodate you in accomplishing those things.

That you don't want to go is entirely different.



Oh look! You've got it!

Me being American is a coincidence. Had I created America, that wouldn't be the case, but I didn't.

How can I despise myself if my criticism is aimed towards something I don't identify with? Hmmm...

...yeah except there's a "rest of" that paragraph. There's no intention in the white race. It's just a bunch of white people who had sex. There's really no such thing as "white culture." Anyone who thinks so is obtuse. American institutions were created with a purpose in mind -- one that I identify with. The white race? No purpose, aside from those who think whiteness makes them superior, and I've already explained that patriotism does not equate to conceit.



And like I said like I said, everything else I've reading contradicts it rather heavily. Still looking into it.

There's a difference between acknowledging the shortcomings of the United States, and making bombastic claims about it losing its "developed country" status. That we have problems is certain. That we are inferior by all measures that matter when compared to all countries that matter is selective interpretation on your part.

Good for you. I think that's silly. I've told you why. You can't tell me why not.

...and yet none of your reasons "why" actually stick.

  1. I've already explained that patriotism doesn't mean conceit, as have other people in this thread who feel patriotism.
  2. I've already explained that patriotism doesn't mean taking credit for things you did not do, as have the others.
  3. I've already explained that patriotism does not have to be excessive or become full-blown nationalism.

Thus far, the only legitimate argument you've brought forth is..."well, I just can't find myself relating to the United States." If you had begun and ended with that point, I could at least respect the position. But that's not it for you. The very idea of patriotism or of being being patriotic is repugnant to you, for reasons that do not stick whatsoever. To you, there's no such thing as "healthy" patriotism at all.

Because you can't relate to this particular brand of respect that people give their country, you pan it as nonsense -- which is pretty much your modus operandi for everything.
 
Well, if you've simply decided to ignore the reasons I've given, then there's not much to say, is there? I see negative effects from these sorts of efforts, and I happen to know a fair amount about charities, what they do in those sorts of places, and that I don't think it's terribly helpful. Again, if it were just a matter of me being "afraid," then I'd have no reason not to give money to those type of causes. But I don't. Because I disagree with the methodology and I don't think it helps. You keep ignoring this point - maybe because it proves you wrong.

You're wrong. There is certainly a Western culture, and for most of history that has meant a white culture. Note how most of the West has a related style of government (yes, I know they're different, but they share a lot of fundamental similarities). So, shall I be "proud" of being white?

We are straggling by the majority of measures, including education, life span, health care, standard of living, and in most cases crime. That is not an insignificant list. And note how I have consistently use words like "most" or "majority." My contention has never been that we are not, indeed, a developed country. We just aren't doing as well by most measures of what that means as most other developed countries are. To my and others dozens of sources, you've been able to produce exactly one, shown in a wiki article with methodology from 1994. Your counter-arguments aren't great.

I have a fundamentally different idea of what patriotism means, which has nothing to do with any definition of pride. Patriotism isn't repugnant to me. You simply insist pride is part of the definition.
 
I have a fundamentally different idea of what patriotism means, which has nothing to do with any definition of pride. Patriotism isn't repugnant to me. You simply insist pride is part of the definition.

Well then that's just you splitting microscopic hairs.

There is no meaningful difference between national pride and patriotism. You can't love a country and be willing to sacrifice for it (de: patriotism) in the utter absence of national pride. In fact, I don't see how you can feel patriotism while merely acknowledging the accomplishments of certain people, and not feeling association with the idea of country. It's not possible, and I highly doubt you'll find anyone who feels patriotic that agrees.

So either they're all wrong because they are so utterly incapable of understanding themselves, or you are because you're a sourpuss. I'm going with the latter.
 
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Well then that's just you splitting microscopic hairs.

There is no meaningful difference between national pride and patriotism. You can't love a country and be willing to sacrifice for it (de: patriotism) in the utter absence of national pride. In fact, I don't see how you can feel patriotism while merely acknowledging the accomplishments of certain people, and not feeling association with the idea of country. It's not possible, and I highly doubt you'll find anyone who feels patriotic that agrees.

So either they're all wrong, or you are. I'm going with the latter.

Ah. So if you don't get it, it doesn't exist, and if you don't understand the difference, there isn't one. Got it.
 
Ah. So if you don't get it, it doesn't exist, and if you don't understand the difference, there isn't one. Got it.

Explain to me how you can be a patriot in the utter, complete absence of national pride.
 
Explain to me how you can be a patriot in the utter, complete absence of national pride.

While people everywhere are fundamentally the same, there is an evolution in our cultures that is different in different parts of the world.

There are certain aspects of the "American" evolution that are very valuable and very important. I've touched on them - our unmitigated passion, the extent of our freedom of speech, and on a social level our friendliness and helpfulness. I've yet to find anywhere else on earth where any of those things are challenged from taking America off its thrown. There's an argument to be made this is another reason I chose to come back, though it was a more subliminal one.

I believe in those things as a tool of how to make our society better. And I believe they can be very successful. A more accurate description of those things, to me, would be appreciation, responsibility, and a certain degree of intellectual awe and curiosity. But pride? No. I didn't make it that way, and if we're using the association definition (which I find flawed) I am not necessarily proud of the way we're using it. I am proud, however, of my own part in bringing that out in others, which has manifested itself in a couple of fairly significant ways, for a small fish like me.

I'd consider myself a patriot. I'm very dedicated to examining and continuing those qualities, and I take the well-being of my fellow countrymen pretty seriously. Pride is not necessary to do any of those things. Nor does it necessarily mean I have to think this is the best place on earth. I don't. And the reason that is so disappointing is because we very easily could be, with the above mentioned qualities that Americans share. My belief in those qualities is what makes me a patriot. But my patriotism is conditional. I'll keep going with that for as long as it exists in a form that I think can be worked with. If that ends, then I'm gone. I am not inherently commited to the piece of dirt. I'm commited to a characteristic of humanity that seems to be stronger in America than elsewhere.
 
I am not proud of the fact that I happened to be born in America, no.
 
I am not proud of the fact that I happened to be born in America, no.

Then maybe you should either take ownership of being an American, and ask yourself what you can do for your country?
 
Then maybe you should either take ownership of being an American, and ask yourself what you can do for your country?
Who says he hasn't already done that?
 
Explain to me how you can be a patriot in the utter, complete absence of national pride.

Patriotism vs. Nationalism | Connor's Conundrums

As historian John J. Dwyer notes, nationalism is a degenerate impostor of patriotism. "The patriot says, `I love my country,’ works for its good, and defends it if necessary — against enemies within and without,"

That's what patriotism means to me. One doesn't need to be a proud American to love America, any more than one needs to have white pride to be thankful for being white (thinking of Louis CK here).
 
While people everywhere are fundamentally the same, there is an evolution in our cultures that is different in different parts of the world.

Fine.

There are certain aspects of the "American" evolution that are very valuable and very important. I've touched on them - our unmitigated passion, the extent of our freedom of speech, and on a social level our friendliness and helpfulness. I've yet to find anywhere else on earth where any of those things are challenged from taking America off its thrown. There's an argument to be made this is another reason I chose to come back, though it was a more subliminal one.

Fine.

I believe in those things as a tool of how to make our society better. And I believe they can be very successful. A more accurate description of those things, to me, would be appreciation, responsibility, and a certain degree of intellectual awe and curiosity. But pride? No. I didn't make it that way, and if we're using the association definition (which I find flawed) I am not necessarily proud of the way we're using it. I am proud, however, of my own part in bringing that out in others, which has manifested itself in a couple of fairly significant ways, for a small fish like me.

There's nothing flawed about it. People are proud by association every day, for countless number of institutions. Call it fandom if you want, but it's still pride. So you're not necessarily proud of the way we're using it. So what? I'm not always proud of the way we use it either. You say "if we're going by the association" definition, and immediately go back to your own, hinting that disapproval automatically negates national pride. Proud of bringing that out in...who exactly? Anyone and everyone? Because then the American-ness of those qualities doesn't really matter either way to you. It's just the qualities, which

I'd consider myself a patriot. I'm very dedicated to examining and continuing those qualities, and I take the well-being of my fellow countrymen pretty seriously.Pride is not necessary to do any of those things.

Patriotism is love of country. Not individuals, not people you are associated with. It's love of country. If you love a country, then why would you not feel proud when it does something to your approval, even if you didn't have much to do with it? If the love and pride are conditional, by all means, let them be conditional. But pride is there.

Nor does it necessarily mean I have to think this is the best place on earth. I don't. And the reason that is so disappointing is because we very easily could be, with the above mentioned qualities that Americans share. My belief in those qualities is what makes me a patriot. But my patriotism is conditional. I'll keep going with that for as long as it exists in a form that I think can be worked with. If that ends, then I'm gone. I am not inherently commited to the piece of dirt. I'm commited to a characteristic of humanity that seems to be stronger in America than elsewhere.

Wait, wait, wait....so now you DO believe in the possibility of American exceptionalism? After decrying that mindset as an evil consequence of excessive pride? That contradicts just about everything you've said.
 
Most of this is just another go-'round of what I've said a hundred times before, so I'll skip to the bottom.

Wait, wait, wait....so now you DO believe in the possibility of American exceptionalism? After decrying that mindset as an evil consequence of excessive pride? That contradicts just about everything you've said.

No. And the only way you could reach that conclusion is to completely ignore everything else I said, including in the very same post. It isn't due to us being American. It's just a particular cultural evolution that has taken place in America moreso than other places. All by itself, it means nothing. In fact, it could be a perfect breeding ground for every sort of social atrocity imaginable. But if properly nurtured, it could also be a great foundation.

America has a very unbalanced evolution. This has nothing to do with anything special about the dirt itself. It's just an outgrowth of conditions.
 
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Most of this is just another go-'round of what I've said a hundred times before, so I'll skip to the bottom.



No. And the only way you could reach that conclusion is to completely ignore everything else I said, including in the very same post. It isn't due to us being American. It's just a particular cultural evolution that has taken place in America moreso than other places. All by itself, it means nothing. In fact, it could be a perfect breeding ground for every sort of social atrocity imaginable. But if properly nurtured, it could also be a great foundation.

America has a very unbalanced evolution. This has nothing to do with anything special about the dirt itself. It's just an outgrowth of conditions.

:2rofll:

First you acknowledge that there is evolution in cultures that is different in different parts of the world.

Then you acknowledge that this difference has created potentially beneficial "American" qualities.

Then you acknowledge that these qualities could be used to make America the "best place on earth."

Thus, you believe in the possibility of countries becoming exceptional as a result of evolution that has taken place more-so within it than other places.

:roll:
 
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this thread is the same as a global warming thread, an abortion thread, and many others.
the liberals side with the pessimistic side of worldview. they blame america and condemn america.
it's a great thread, though....regardless of the fact that no minds will be changed. it proves a lot.
it proves the liberal mentality to be treasonous to the very principles which a nation is defined.
but it is a worthless discussion. liberals will stand against this country, regardless of the life this
country has blessed them with.
 
this thread is the same as a global warming thread, an abortion thread, and many others.
the liberals side with the pessimistic side of worldview. they blame america and condemn america.
it's a great thread, though....regardless of the fact that no minds will be changed. it proves a lot.
it proves the liberal mentality to be treasonous to the very principles which a nation is defined.
but it is a worthless discussion. liberals will stand against this country, regardless of the life this
country has blessed them with.

It's almost impressive how you manage to weave such compact knots of nonsense.
 
They absolutely are. American asylum seekers have a unique narrative. Nowhere else are you an American asylum seeker besides America. In no other country do immigrants relate to Ellis Island. It's a fundamentally different story. American English is distinct from Australian English and British English. Also unique. You not caring enough to notice does not preclude their uniqueness.

A distinct tonal quality is not the kind of 'unique', qualities you, and others are ascribing to Americans. In your view; Americans are uniquely benevolent, righteous, etc. Such myths are integral to nation-states, and every nation-state has them. It's simply nonsense.


...and a good many of those people happened to believe in that mythological entity, and were proud of it.

Some did, some didn't.

It's perfectly rational to feel pride by association. Why do you think people feel proud of their respective sports teams when they make progress?

Sports are a training course in irrational jingoism.

You're right. It's a socialist dictatorship. Which is what I said. If you want to call it a communist dictatorship, go ahead. I don't particularly care to argue the difference right now. Also, when Raul announced a pay raise a few years back, he said it was to rewards those who "defended socialism." Hmm....

I haven't studied it in-depth, but, from what I do know, I'd describe it as 'state-capitalist.' It's anything but Socialist.

Saying a nation is "more altruistic" for giving a larger percentage of its GDP is like saying the nation that lost a higher proportion of its population during a war was more in-the-right. We give much more in real terms.

What are these 'real terms'? To what are you referring?

Besides, Cuban foreign aid is geared towards its Bolivarian allies, and what it terms "anti-colonialism." Aside from that, it's mostly their international medical brigades doing PR.

Call it 'PR', if you want, but they are saving lives, and not just a few. Cuba is expending energy sending trained medical professionals to the most remote and impoverished parts of the world to provide medical care. I have trouble condemning them for that.

Cuba has excellent reasons to be concerned. They have around the highest incidences of terrorism in the region. The terrorist groups are largely headquartered in Miami, where they are allowed to bomb nightclubs and hotels, or airliners, because they're killing the right people. Given the history of US foreign policy in the region, OPERATION: CONDOR, etc., Cuba's South American allies have very legitimate reasons for concern.

Many of the Cuban doctors sent abroad actually defect. That should tell you something.

Some do, most don't.

Again, not sure how this precludes me from feeling pride.

It just to further demonstrate that this is an irrational emotional reaction.

I'm sorry that having no innate rights in reality hurts your world view. Seems like you feel rather attached to something that doesn't exist.

I don't know how else to explain it to you. I also don't think you've truly considered the implications of what you're saying. This is just another impasse.

Maybe that's your substitute for religious faith, eh? ALL HAIL THE CHURCH OF ANARCHO-SOCIALISM! That's what you are, right?

Anarchism. Yes. Comparing Anarchism with religion is fundamentally false. Unlike Christianity, or secular dogma, like Marxism, Anarchism doesn't purport to reveal any heretofore unknown truth about the way the world is.

So let me get this straight...you live in a nation that, according to you, is not only the number one sponsor of state terrorism in the world,

Most prolific perpetrator and sponsor of terrorism, and it's hardly controversial. In the United States it's heresy, but it's widely understood. By it's own definition, by the official definition, this is beyond question.

but fundamentally illegitimate...

'And' fundamentally illegitimate. All states are fundamentally illegitimate. This is not unique to the United States.

yet you persist in living here and paying taxes (which, to you, should be blood money)... and your excuse is that you want to butcher the cow you're milking? Take note --this is why people of your ilk are ridiculed. Actually, I feel pity towards you.

I don't take your criticisms of my philosophy very seriously, as it's abundantly clear you don't understand it. and are, thus, unfit to judge. This isn't the Anarchism: 101 thread. I can refer you to some literature, if you'd like.

I think this has run it's course, I don't see any new territory to be covered. Nationalism is a quasi-religion, it is irrational, and therefore, like the argument between Atheists and the faithful, ultimately can only go so far. The only option is for one side to convert. Until then, all we can do is shout at eachother in different languages.
 
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