View Poll Results: Are you proud to be an American?

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  • Yes.

    52 73.24%
  • No.

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Thread: Are you proud to be an American?

  1. #221
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Most of this is just another go-'round of what I've said a hundred times before, so I'll skip to the bottom.



    No. And the only way you could reach that conclusion is to completely ignore everything else I said, including in the very same post. It isn't due to us being American. It's just a particular cultural evolution that has taken place in America moreso than other places. All by itself, it means nothing. In fact, it could be a perfect breeding ground for every sort of social atrocity imaginable. But if properly nurtured, it could also be a great foundation.

    America has a very unbalanced evolution. This has nothing to do with anything special about the dirt itself. It's just an outgrowth of conditions.


    First you acknowledge that there is evolution in cultures that is different in different parts of the world.

    Then you acknowledge that this difference has created potentially beneficial "American" qualities.

    Then you acknowledge that these qualities could be used to make America the "best place on earth."

    Thus, you believe in the possibility of countries becoming exceptional as a result of evolution that has taken place more-so within it than other places.

    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-26-11 at 11:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  2. #222
    Educator lewstherin's Avatar
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    this thread is the same as a global warming thread, an abortion thread, and many others.
    the liberals side with the pessimistic side of worldview. they blame america and condemn america.
    it's a great thread, though....regardless of the fact that no minds will be changed. it proves a lot.
    it proves the liberal mentality to be treasonous to the very principles which a nation is defined.
    but it is a worthless discussion. liberals will stand against this country, regardless of the life this
    country has blessed them with.
    “The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.”
    http://www.indylevee.com/

  3. #223
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    this thread is the same as a global warming thread, an abortion thread, and many others.
    the liberals side with the pessimistic side of worldview. they blame america and condemn america.
    it's a great thread, though....regardless of the fact that no minds will be changed. it proves a lot.
    it proves the liberal mentality to be treasonous to the very principles which a nation is defined.
    but it is a worthless discussion. liberals will stand against this country, regardless of the life this
    country has blessed them with.
    It's almost impressive how you manage to weave such compact knots of nonsense.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  4. #224
    Educator lewstherin's Avatar
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    It's almost impressive how you manage to weave such compact knots of nonsense.
    i don't tie knots. i unravel them.
    “The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.”
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  5. #225
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    They absolutely are. American asylum seekers have a unique narrative. Nowhere else are you an American asylum seeker besides America. In no other country do immigrants relate to Ellis Island. It's a fundamentally different story. American English is distinct from Australian English and British English. Also unique. You not caring enough to notice does not preclude their uniqueness.
    A distinct tonal quality is not the kind of 'unique', qualities you, and others are ascribing to Americans. In your view; Americans are uniquely benevolent, righteous, etc. Such myths are integral to nation-states, and every nation-state has them. It's simply nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...and a good many of those people happened to believe in that mythological entity, and were proud of it.
    Some did, some didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    It's perfectly rational to feel pride by association. Why do you think people feel proud of their respective sports teams when they make progress?
    Sports are a training course in irrational jingoism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    You're right. It's a socialist dictatorship. Which is what I said. If you want to call it a communist dictatorship, go ahead. I don't particularly care to argue the difference right now. Also, when Raul announced a pay raise a few years back, he said it was to rewards those who "defended socialism." Hmm....
    I haven't studied it in-depth, but, from what I do know, I'd describe it as 'state-capitalist.' It's anything but Socialist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Saying a nation is "more altruistic" for giving a larger percentage of its GDP is like saying the nation that lost a higher proportion of its population during a war was more in-the-right. We give much more in real terms.
    What are these 'real terms'? To what are you referring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Besides, Cuban foreign aid is geared towards its Bolivarian allies, and what it terms "anti-colonialism." Aside from that, it's mostly their international medical brigades doing PR.
    Call it 'PR', if you want, but they are saving lives, and not just a few. Cuba is expending energy sending trained medical professionals to the most remote and impoverished parts of the world to provide medical care. I have trouble condemning them for that.

    Cuba has excellent reasons to be concerned. They have around the highest incidences of terrorism in the region. The terrorist groups are largely headquartered in Miami, where they are allowed to bomb nightclubs and hotels, or airliners, because they're killing the right people. Given the history of US foreign policy in the region, OPERATION: CONDOR, etc., Cuba's South American allies have very legitimate reasons for concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Many of the Cuban doctors sent abroad actually defect. That should tell you something.
    Some do, most don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Again, not sure how this precludes me from feeling pride.
    It just to further demonstrate that this is an irrational emotional reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I'm sorry that having no innate rights in reality hurts your world view. Seems like you feel rather attached to something that doesn't exist.
    I don't know how else to explain it to you. I also don't think you've truly considered the implications of what you're saying. This is just another impasse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Maybe that's your substitute for religious faith, eh? ALL HAIL THE CHURCH OF ANARCHO-SOCIALISM! That's what you are, right?
    Anarchism. Yes. Comparing Anarchism with religion is fundamentally false. Unlike Christianity, or secular dogma, like Marxism, Anarchism doesn't purport to reveal any heretofore unknown truth about the way the world is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    So let me get this straight...you live in a nation that, according to you, is not only the number one sponsor of state terrorism in the world,
    Most prolific perpetrator and sponsor of terrorism, and it's hardly controversial. In the United States it's heresy, but it's widely understood. By it's own definition, by the official definition, this is beyond question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    but fundamentally illegitimate...
    'And' fundamentally illegitimate. All states are fundamentally illegitimate. This is not unique to the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    yet you persist in living here and paying taxes (which, to you, should be blood money)... and your excuse is that you want to butcher the cow you're milking? Take note --this is why people of your ilk are ridiculed. Actually, I feel pity towards you.
    I don't take your criticisms of my philosophy very seriously, as it's abundantly clear you don't understand it. and are, thus, unfit to judge. This isn't the Anarchism: 101 thread. I can refer you to some literature, if you'd like.

    I think this has run it's course, I don't see any new territory to be covered. Nationalism is a quasi-religion, it is irrational, and therefore, like the argument between Atheists and the faithful, ultimately can only go so far. The only option is for one side to convert. Until then, all we can do is shout at eachother in different languages.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  6. #226
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post


    First you acknowledge that there is evolution in cultures that is different in different parts of the world.

    Then you acknowledge that this difference has created potentially beneficial "American" qualities.

    Then you acknowledge that these qualities could be used to make America the "best place on earth."

    Thus, you believe in the possibility of countries becoming exceptional as a result of evolution that has taken place more-so within it than other places.

    More so than other places? Really. When did I say that?

    On the contrary, I think that developing that particular advantage without any real maturity on the part of the culture actually has a better chance of going south. I think I'm playing losing odds. But I could still be wrong, and with enough motivation, I could definitely be wrong.

    Furthermore, just about any society could be argued to have certain paths to success. America is not unique in that way. And what I actually said is that it has those particular qualities more so than any place I have personally been to. I did not say it was "better" or even that it had more potential.

    Once again, you just ignore what I say to make it convenient to you. It's the only way you can even pretend to respond, isn't it.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-27-11 at 01:34 AM.

  7. #227
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    I was going to reply to your post, and got as far as --

    Sports are a training course in irrational jingoism.
    -- before I burst out laughing. With all due respect, that is one of the most paranoid, preposterous sentences I have ever heard. Everything you say is punctuated by dementia.

    You think Cuba is "state-Capitalist?" They call themselves socialist. They held a parade on May 14th of this year, explicitly to "honor socialism." When Raul Castro raised state pensions in April of 2008, he went on the record saying it was honor those who defended socialism. Defection of Cuban doctor is a trend that has been growing for years, with medical professionals taking back toilet paper when they're abroad. Trust me, I know all I need to know about your ideology. I've read the rants from Bakunin (in the original), Murray Rothbard, as well as other scions of various anarchist branches.

    I have absolutely considered the implications of rights not being inborn. I've made peace with it a long time ago, because it's the truth. If you choose to believe in some code that all humans are owed, then I laugh at your supposed atheism. All you're doing is praying to a different "god." You are born with nothing. You die with nothing. You are owed nothing.

    The fact that you're arguing the United States is the world's most prolific perpetrator of terrorism by its own definition is laughable, considering that same definition doesn't recognize acts perpetrated by recognized states. Terrorism by that definition is necessarily sub-national. Anything perpetrated by a state (according to the US definition) is considered something else.

    Honestly, it's hardly worth validating you with responses at all.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-27-11 at 01:46 AM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  8. #228
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    More so than other places? Really. When did I say that?

    On the contrary, I think that developing that particular advantage without any real maturity on the part of the culture actually has a better chance of going south. I think I'm playing losing odds. But I could still be wrong, and with enough motivation, I could definitely be wrong.

    Furthermore, just about any society could be argued to have certain paths to success. America is not unique in that way. And what I actually said is that it has those particular qualities more so than any place I have personally been to. I did not say it was "better" or even that it had more potential.

    Once again, you just ignore what I say to make it convenient to you. It's the only way you can even pretend to respond, isn't it.
    Oh please. You constantly harp about "civility" and how the United States is so "uncivilized" unless compared to third world countries (which, by the way, I find hilarious. Even I don't claim to call certain countries more civilized than others). You've already said you think you're playing losing odds, so obviously you don't even really believe in this "equality of potential" that you're arguing for. Yet here you are, claiming that countries can evolve along different (a label that includes "faster" and "easier") lines to become exceptional (that is to say, better than all others in the world), because of their unique "qualities." It goes against everything you've said.

    You're just hoping that America becomes more to your liking, and that this change will make you feel less pissed. I can't speak for the former. As for the latter, I doubt it will.

    Frankly I don't really buy this "battle" narrative -- I was mostly just humoring you by going along with it. It seems to me like this whole "I came back to save the country" story is the self-justification of a melodramatic, and ultimately unhappy person who despises their hometown. Just because you came back to help some people out, doesn't mean you have to turn it into a soap about putting your money where your mouth is.

    Honestly, it's quite senseless debating with a person who ranks countries by their civility. No offense, I find that pretty repugnant. I'm done with this thread.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-27-11 at 02:26 AM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  9. #229
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    And you're certainly a shining example of civility yourself.

    You don't really address any of my points, ever. Just go for shallow and ineffectual ad hominum's, toed along a very careful line.

    NG is actually quite right - what you're espousing is simply blind jingoism. You can't be reasoned with. Adieu.

  10. #230
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I was going to reply to your post, and got as far as --
    -- before I burst out laughing. With all due respect, that is one of the most paranoid, preposterous sentences I have ever heard. Everything you say is punctuated by dementia.
    There's nothing 'paranoid' about it. Sports fans are irrational and jingoistic. Literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    You think Cuba is "state-Capitalist?"
    Yeah. Again, this based on a very cursory overview, but yeah. Most, if not all, of the 'Socialist' bloc was state-capitalist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    They call themselves socialist. They held a parade on May 14th of this year, explicitly to "honor socialism." When Raul Castro raised state pensions in April of 2008, he went on the record saying it was honor those who defended socialism.
    Saying something doesn't make it true. The fact that the Cuban government proclaims itself to be Socialist is irrelevent. What matters is what it does, how it functions. If we define Socialism by the bulk of the intellectual history of Socialist thought; it's not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Trust me, I know all I need to know about your ideology. I've read the rants from Bakunin (in the original), Murray Rothbard, as well as other scions of various anarchist branches.
    Then you should know better than to say such ridiculous things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I have absolutely considered the implications of rights not being inborn. I've made peace with it a long time ago, because it's the truth. If you choose to believe in some code that all humans are owed, then I laugh at your supposed atheism. All you're doing is praying to a different "god." You are born with nothing. You die with nothing. You are owed nothing.
    This idea is, in no way, religious, or comperable to religion. It is an ethical proposition about man's responsibility to man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    The fact that you're arguing the United States is the world's most prolific perpetrator of terrorism by its own definition is laughable, considering that same definition doesn't recognize acts perpetrated by recognized states. Terrorism by that definition is necessarily sub-national. Anything perpetrated by a state (according to the US definition) is considered something else.
    Yeah, you said it, yourself; the only reason that this definition isn't applied to the United States is that the United States does not officially use those criteria to judge state actors. That's deliberate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Honestly, it's hardly worth validating you with responses at all.
    I was thinking the same thing. Again, essentially, I'm arguing with your religious beliefs, which is pointless.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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