View Poll Results: Are you proud to be an American?

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  • Yes.

    52 73.24%
  • No.

    19 26.76%
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Thread: Are you proud to be an American?

  1. #211
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Explain to me how you can be a patriot in the utter, complete absence of national pride.
    While people everywhere are fundamentally the same, there is an evolution in our cultures that is different in different parts of the world.

    There are certain aspects of the "American" evolution that are very valuable and very important. I've touched on them - our unmitigated passion, the extent of our freedom of speech, and on a social level our friendliness and helpfulness. I've yet to find anywhere else on earth where any of those things are challenged from taking America off its thrown. There's an argument to be made this is another reason I chose to come back, though it was a more subliminal one.

    I believe in those things as a tool of how to make our society better. And I believe they can be very successful. A more accurate description of those things, to me, would be appreciation, responsibility, and a certain degree of intellectual awe and curiosity. But pride? No. I didn't make it that way, and if we're using the association definition (which I find flawed) I am not necessarily proud of the way we're using it. I am proud, however, of my own part in bringing that out in others, which has manifested itself in a couple of fairly significant ways, for a small fish like me.

    I'd consider myself a patriot. I'm very dedicated to examining and continuing those qualities, and I take the well-being of my fellow countrymen pretty seriously. Pride is not necessary to do any of those things. Nor does it necessarily mean I have to think this is the best place on earth. I don't. And the reason that is so disappointing is because we very easily could be, with the above mentioned qualities that Americans share. My belief in those qualities is what makes me a patriot. But my patriotism is conditional. I'll keep going with that for as long as it exists in a form that I think can be worked with. If that ends, then I'm gone. I am not inherently commited to the piece of dirt. I'm commited to a characteristic of humanity that seems to be stronger in America than elsewhere.

  2. #212
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    I am not proud of the fact that I happened to be born in America, no.
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  3. #213
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtilityMonster View Post
    I am not proud of the fact that I happened to be born in America, no.
    Then maybe you should either take ownership of being an American, and ask yourself what you can do for your country?

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  4. #214
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Explain to me how you can be a patriot in the utter, complete absence of national pride.
    Define patriot.

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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Then maybe you should either take ownership of being an American, and ask yourself what you can do for your country?
    Who says he hasn't already done that?

  6. #216
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Explain to me how you can be a patriot in the utter, complete absence of national pride.
    Patriotism vs. Nationalism | Connor's Conundrums

    As historian John J. Dwyer notes, nationalism is a degenerate impostor of patriotism. "The patriot says, `I love my country, works for its good, and defends it if necessary against enemies within and without,"
    That's what patriotism means to me. One doesn't need to be a proud American to love America, any more than one needs to have white pride to be thankful for being white (thinking of Louis CK here).
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  7. #217
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    While people everywhere are fundamentally the same, there is an evolution in our cultures that is different in different parts of the world.
    Fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    There are certain aspects of the "American" evolution that are very valuable and very important. I've touched on them - our unmitigated passion, the extent of our freedom of speech, and on a social level our friendliness and helpfulness. I've yet to find anywhere else on earth where any of those things are challenged from taking America off its thrown. There's an argument to be made this is another reason I chose to come back, though it was a more subliminal one.
    Fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I believe in those things as a tool of how to make our society better. And I believe they can be very successful. A more accurate description of those things, to me, would be appreciation, responsibility, and a certain degree of intellectual awe and curiosity. But pride? No. I didn't make it that way, and if we're using the association definition (which I find flawed) I am not necessarily proud of the way we're using it. I am proud, however, of my own part in bringing that out in others, which has manifested itself in a couple of fairly significant ways, for a small fish like me.
    There's nothing flawed about it. People are proud by association every day, for countless number of institutions. Call it fandom if you want, but it's still pride. So you're not necessarily proud of the way we're using it. So what? I'm not always proud of the way we use it either. You say "if we're going by the association" definition, and immediately go back to your own, hinting that disapproval automatically negates national pride. Proud of bringing that out in...who exactly? Anyone and everyone? Because then the American-ness of those qualities doesn't really matter either way to you. It's just the qualities, which

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I'd consider myself a patriot. I'm very dedicated to examining and continuing those qualities, and I take the well-being of my fellow countrymen pretty seriously.Pride is not necessary to do any of those things.
    Patriotism is love of country. Not individuals, not people you are associated with. It's love of country. If you love a country, then why would you not feel proud when it does something to your approval, even if you didn't have much to do with it? If the love and pride are conditional, by all means, let them be conditional. But pride is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Nor does it necessarily mean I have to think this is the best place on earth. I don't. And the reason that is so disappointing is because we very easily could be, with the above mentioned qualities that Americans share. My belief in those qualities is what makes me a patriot. But my patriotism is conditional. I'll keep going with that for as long as it exists in a form that I think can be worked with. If that ends, then I'm gone. I am not inherently commited to the piece of dirt. I'm commited to a characteristic of humanity that seems to be stronger in America than elsewhere.
    Wait, wait, wait....so now you DO believe in the possibility of American exceptionalism? After decrying that mindset as an evil consequence of excessive pride? That contradicts just about everything you've said.
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  8. #218
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Then maybe you should either take ownership of being an American, and ask yourself what you can do for your country?
    Why?

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  9. #219
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Patriotism vs. Nationalism | Connor's Conundrums



    That's what patriotism means to me. One doesn't need to be a proud American to love America, any more than one needs to have white pride to be thankful for being white (thinking of Louis CK here).
    I do not think national pride and nationalism are the same thing.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  10. #220
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Most of this is just another go-'round of what I've said a hundred times before, so I'll skip to the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Wait, wait, wait....so now you DO believe in the possibility of American exceptionalism? After decrying that mindset as an evil consequence of excessive pride? That contradicts just about everything you've said.
    No. And the only way you could reach that conclusion is to completely ignore everything else I said, including in the very same post. It isn't due to us being American. It's just a particular cultural evolution that has taken place in America moreso than other places. All by itself, it means nothing. In fact, it could be a perfect breeding ground for every sort of social atrocity imaginable. But if properly nurtured, it could also be a great foundation.

    America has a very unbalanced evolution. This has nothing to do with anything special about the dirt itself. It's just an outgrowth of conditions.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-26-11 at 11:07 PM.

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