View Poll Results: Are you proud to be an American?

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  • Yes.

    52 73.24%
  • No.

    19 26.76%
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Thread: Are you proud to be an American?

  1. #131
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    No. Appreciative, perhaps. But not proud. I didn't do anything to make it so. What have I got to be proud of?
    ...well it seems to me that you stayed in the US because you feel a certain sense of responsibility to, and therefore association with, the plight of Americans.

    Why, then, would you not be proud when America does something you approve of, even if you had nothing to do with it?
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  2. #132
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...well it seems to me that you stayed in the US because you feel a certain sense of responsibility to, and therefore association with, the plight of Americans.

    Why, then, would you not be proud when America does something you approve of, even if you had nothing to do with it?
    I have the responsibility to because I can. The fact that I can is an accident of birth. I feel a moral obligation to try to right things I think are wrong if I am able to. I associate with the plight of people.

    Because I would have nothing to be proud of. If I didn't take part, I have nothing to be proud of. Rather, I am humbled by the people who did what I either could not, or didn't have time to (we all have to pick our issues - there's too many to do them all).

    But none of it has anything to do with this piece of dirt in North America. It has to do with people. Being American in and of itself doesn't mean anything.

  3. #133
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    oh...they are persons.
    This is really off-topic, but hopefully, I'll be able to cover all the bases in a single post.

    To clarify, when I say 'person', I'm using it in a specific sense; to refer to a unique, sentient consciousness. So, personhood, in this sense, is impossible until after birth, I would argue not for some time afterwards. Now, a human being, is a discrete, whole, (In the sense of having all of the prerquisite biological componants.) human organism. It is entirely possible to be a human being, and not a person, it is, theoretically, possible to be a person, but not a human being. Posessing either characteristic entitles one to rights which the rest of us are bound to respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    each with an individual heartbeat from the carrier. each with sometimes a different bloodtype. their individuality
    is undeniable.
    None of these criteria are relevent. Cancer cells and mitochondria have unique DNA, a beating heart, also, is not a sufficient condition of being a human being. (Or, a person.) The sufficient biological conditions (The only relevent conditions.) of a human being is a minimal degree of functional neural hardware, (If it was totally nonfunctional, it wouldn't be alive, and therefore, by definition, ineligible.) which simply doesn't exist until a point in the third trimester. This is sometimes called the Neurological definition of human life, and it is the most rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    you don't consider them "people" because legality has implanted you with this notion they are not. nothing more. all legality.
    so spare me your hypocritical nonsense on legality and morality. i'm not buying it.
    There's nothing hypocritical about it.

    If you haveany morequestions or comments;please relocate to the latest abortion thread, where I would be amenable to elaborating. I won't derail this thread any further.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I have the responsibility to because I can. The fact that I can is an accident of birth. I feel a moral obligation to try to right things I think are wrong if I am able to. I associate with the plight of people.

    Because I would have nothing to be proud of. If I didn't take part, I have nothing to be proud of. Rather, I am humbled by the people who did what I either could not, or didn't have time to (we all have to pick our issues - there's too many to do them all).

    But none of it has anything to do with this piece of dirt in North America. It has to do with people. Being American in and of itself doesn't mean anything.
    So you can bring yourself to believe in something symbolic like humanity, since you obviously feel for the plight of people, but you can't bring yourself to feel proud of your country? I, for one, acknowledge that the US isn't perfect, but ultimately I like the vision of America, and believe it has done more good than harm. It is that association with American ideals written by self-proclaimed American people like the founding fathers that makes me proud. They did what I could not because they envisioned a certain kind of nation, and I envision the same kind of nation. By your own admission, you stayed because you saw potential of your country, and obviously envision something for it.

    Those same people who you feel humbled by, are the ones who contributed all of the positives to the current situation of the United States. You don't look at that abstract conglomeration of ideas and feel proud to be partaking in the same kind of agitation? To be part of a long line of active Americans? Aren't you at least proud to be part of the political process, whatever the hell it is that you happen to do? That, in NO way, translates to pride for America? I don't understand that. I really don't. It seems to me like you're consciously refusing to be proud, because to you, that means something horrible and Nazi-esque.
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  5. #135
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...all this argues against is excessive pride.
    Everything you are talking about in regards to America... why can't someone believe in all that without being prideful about it at all?

  6. #136
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    So you can bring yourself to believe in something symbolic like humanity, since you obviously feel for the plight of people, but you can't bring yourself to feel proud of your country? I, for one, acknowledge that the US isn't perfect, but ultimately I like the vision of America, and believe it has done more good than harm. It is that association with American ideals written by self-proclaimed American people like the founding fathers that makes me proud. They did what I could not because they envisioned a certain kind of nation, and I envision the same kind of nation. By your own admission, you stayed because you saw potential of your country, and obviously envision something for it.

    Those same people who you feel humbled by, are the ones who contributed all of the positives to the current situation of the United States. You don't look at that abstract conglomeration of ideas and feel proud to be partaking in the same kind of agitation? To be part of a long line of active Americans? Aren't you at least proud to be part of the political process, whatever the hell it is that you happen to do? That, in NO way, translates to pride for America? I don't understand that. I really don't. It seems to me like you're consciously refusing to be proud, because to you, that means something horrible and Nazi-esque.
    My stances here are pretty consistent. I am not proud of America. Nor am I "proud" of humanity. I identify with people, and I happen to be an American, which means I can help better the reality for American people. None of this involves, nor necessitates, any sort of pride. Again, I didn't do anything. I was simply born. So what? I happen to be a human and an American, thus I have a unique ability to affect change in those demographics.

    You're confusing your terms here. Pride does not apply to any of this. I am appreciative of my rights, to whatever extent they still exist. But pride would imply I had some part in making them so. I didn't. I was just born here. It would be this way whether I was ever born or not. Why should I feel proud of it?

    I take momentary pride in things I actually do and take part in. You saying I think it's "nazi-eque" to feel pride is insane. I explicitly said what situations I would take pride in. I appreciate the things others do and take part in. There is a difference.

    And as to the source of my shame, my shame comes from acts I believe are shameful with often happen in spite of my influence. And my influence, and failure, entitles me to shame. Just as my influence and success would entitle me to pride.

    If I don't influence it, to be prideful is stupid and a pat on the back for something I didn't do. It's delusional and arrogant.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-26-11 at 01:37 AM.

  7. #137
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    I am proud to be an American.

    I was born here. No, I had no control over that... but I could choose to leave if I thought it was so bad. I have not done so.

    I participate in government to the extent I am able. I try to be informed and make good decisions, and vote in every election. I have actively campaigned for candidates I believed in, and causes. I volunteered for the military, and being turned down due to a hearing problem I served my community as a peace officer for some years.

    My part in making America, America, has been small but I've done what I can. My nation is not perfect, of course. It has faults and flaws and there are some things I would change. However this is a nation where even the poor typically have a home, enough food, a TV, and maybe a car or computer. It is a nation where the potential to prosper through education and hard work is greater than almost any other nation on earth. It is a nation where the rights of the individual are enshrined in the Constitution, and if there are failings in this regard at times at least we're trying hard to reach that ideal.

    We are powerful but largely benevolent. Hundreds of millions live in (reasonably) free and democratic states because tens of thousands of US servicemen gave their lives... and we rarely ask for anything more than a small plot of land to bury our dead, and maybe an airbase or two to help keep the neighborhood bullies at bay. The very people we've spend 50 years protecting often sneer at us... but we keep protecting them anyway.

    Some people say we're greedy and consume more than our share. I say never before in history has one nation done so much for so many, and if you want your nation to be as prosperous as ours, well we've shown you how.

    Yes, I am proud to be an American, and I'm not the least bit ashamed to say it out loud.


    AMERICA #1, USA!!!

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  8. #138
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    My stances here are pretty consistent. I am not proud of America. Nor am I "proud" of humanity. I identify with people, and I happen to be an American, which means I can help better the reality for American people. None of this involves, nor necessitates, any sort of pride. Again, I didn't do anything. I was simply born. So what? I happen to be a human and an American, thus I have a unique ability to affect change in those demographics.

    You're confusing your terms here. Pride does not apply to any of this. I am appreciative of my rights, to whatever extent they still exist. But pride would imply I had some part in making them so. I didn't. I was just born here. It would be this way whether I was ever born or not. Why should I feel proud of it?

    I take momentary pride in things I actually do and take part in. You saying I think it's "nazi-eque" to feel pride is insane. I explicitly said what situations I would take pride in. I appreciate the things others do and take part in. There is a difference.

    And as to the source of my shame, my shame comes from acts I believe are shameful with often happen in spite of my influence. And my influence, and failure, entitles me to shame. Just as my influence and success would entitle me to pride.

    If I don't influence it, to be prideful is stupid and a pat on the back for something I didn't do. It's delusional and arrogant.
    Do you honestly believe that, when the average American says "I am proud of the United States," they are

    1. Taking credit for something?
    2. Asserting the complete and intractable superiority of the United States over other nations?


    All they do is take all of those people and events you are humbled by, and create a tradition out of them, subsequently taking pride in that tradition. To me, national pride is semantically different from personal pride.

    Pride can also be defined as a reasonable or justifiable self-respect. Therefore national pride can be a reasonable or justifiable respect for your nation. So, by that definition, would you say you feel national pride?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  9. #139
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    AMERICA #1, USA!!!

  10. #140
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    Utterly uncalled for. There is no comparison.

    We are not gassing millions of undesirables in death camps.
    We are not attempting to conquer the world. At this very moment we're busy trying to give BACK the two countries we most recently liberated from tyranny.
    We are not trying to advance the concept that we're the "master race" or the natural overlords of the thousand-year Reich.

    You cannot compare the Reich with the USA with any intellectual honesty. To even do so is to classify yourself with the other irrational America-haters who have about as much factual basis for their hate as Westboro Church does for ITS hate.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-26-11 at 02:16 AM.

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