View Poll Results: Are you proud to be an American?

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  • Yes.

    52 73.24%
  • No.

    19 26.76%
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Thread: Are you proud to be an American?

  1. #121
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    you're deflecting off into legal definitions now. you said legality didn't matter. remember?
    I'm not saying aborted embryos aren't legally persons or human beings, I'm saying; they aren't persons or human beings, at least, in more than 96% of cases.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  2. #122
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    You should at least keep up the pretense that people have God-given rights. It serves us well.
    It doesn't say God gives rights in the Bible, which the constitution was supposedly based on...

  3. #123
    Educator lewstherin's Avatar
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I'm not saying aborted embryos aren't legally persons or human beings, I'm saying; they aren't persons or human beings, at least, in more than 96% of cases.
    are they canines, then?
    “The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.”
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  4. #124
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    are they canines, then?
    No. A fetus.

  5. #125
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    are they canines, then?
    Of course not, they are zygotes, blastocysts, etc. They are human, but not yet human beings, and, absolutely, not persons.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

  6. #126
    Educator lewstherin's Avatar
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Of course not, they are zygotes, blastocysts, etc. They are human, but not yet human beings, and, absolutely, not persons.
    oh...they are persons. each with an individual heartbeat from the carrier. each with sometimes a different bloodtype. their individuality
    is undeniable. you don't consider them "people" because legality has implanted you with this notion they are not. nothing more. all legality.
    so spare me your hypocritical nonsense on legality and morality. i'm not buying it.
    “The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.”
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  7. #127
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    That's somewhat subjective, however; compared with most of the world, that's accurate. However, compared to the rest of the Western world, the United States is less ideal by almost every metric. I'm certainly glad that I don't have to deal with the crushing social problems in the Palestinian territories, or Sudan, however, that doesn't mean that things can't be better, or that we should turn a blind eye to the problems that do exist. Also, none of the liberties we have in this country are fundamentally 'American', there's no reason why Palestinians, the Sudanese, etc., shouldn't, or couldn't have similarly free societies, or, even, much freer societies. Americans are not inherently better than anyone else.
    What does being inherently better have to do with being proud of the United States? I'd be proud of being Swedish if I were Swedish.

    But I'm not Swedish.

    I don't speak Swedish.

    I don't feel Swedish.

    I feel American, because I speak English and because I am part of a rich history of asylum seekers looking for freedom and a better quality of life...one which America has provided to me. I am both thankful for that, and proud to live in a country that can look back on a history of accomplishment. I don't understand why you aren't. I can only attribute it to unwarranted pessimism and reading from the Chomskian script.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    'Rich' is fairly noncommittal. 'Altruistic'? Compared to what? Cuba is more 'altruistic' than the United States.
    Yeah, because socialist dictatorships are so altruistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    By that reasoning, no-one ever has to be accountable for anything.
    Stupidity.

    I can hold a country accountable for things, yet acknowledge that most countries do those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    It ceratainly serves a purpose. It's good that certain rights are enshrined in American law. However, it's important to note that, first, the state is incapable of creating rights, it can only choose to respect them. Second, rights weren't just handed down to us on a magical piece of paper. Many Americans fought and bled for them. Freedom of speech, for example, while included in the Bill of Rights, didn't exist until 1969. It's also a constant struggle to preserve and protect these rights, which are constantly under assault. The PATRIOT Act, for example, is an assault on civil rights. finally, one should never have to be greatful for not being denied basic human rights, the definition of a basic human right is the bare minimum which every human being should be accorded by virtue of the fact they are alive.
    I know this is hard for you to believe, since you seem a little self-centered and don't like things that don't have to "do with you," but you are not born with rights. Doesn't mean they aren't worth defending or whatever, but rights are created because they are written down and because people have reasoned that it's better to accept the abstract value of those rights. The rights themselves exist because of human imagination. No God and no idealized version of a natural state can truly change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Also, again, nation-states are fundamentally illegitimate institutions, therefore, they should not exist.
    Then don't vote in one, or pay taxes in one, or live in one. It's easier than you think. Take some classes in wilderness survival and and go live off the grid. People do it. Why live by the rules of a fundamentally illegitimate institution?You have the option not to, and honestly it's pretty easy. Convince others to do the same. Maybe that'll take you farther than posting about it on the internet. By all means, go.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I don't see that supporting freedom simply in words is especially meaningful. Any despot can make professions about high-minded concepts like justice, etc. What people do is what matters most. On that front, the United States is the most prolific perpetrator and sponsor of international terrorism. Also, there have been empirical studies showing an, overall, inverse relationship between US military aid and human rights; the most opressive regimes have consistently been the largest beneficiaries of US support.
    This paragraph is laughable and doesn't merit a true response.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    Again, I'm proud of what I've done, what I'm responsible for, just as I'm ashamed of things that I'm responsible for. It is fundamentally irrational to take pride in the fact that I happened to have been born in the United States, I did not contribute to this in any way, whatsoever.
    Why? Because you weren't there for past accomplishments? Because you didn't personally write the Constitution? Being proud of something doesn't necessitate some kind of overbearing superiority over alternatives. I merely consider myself American, enjoy all good aspects of America, and believe that in the end, America is capable of overcoming its obstacles. I feel proud when America succeeds, and somewhat despondent when America fails. Since I enjoy the freedoms of this country, it seems only natural that I feel this way. It's possible, and in my opinion justifiable to be proud by association. That's national pride.

    The fact that you don't feel the same is beyond me.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-26-11 at 12:52 AM.
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  8. #128
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source. Only true humility is the antidote to shame. Pride is blinding, and IMO is a big contributor to the decay of our nation. The politicians have riled the emotions of many to support dead-end policies or to question loyalties.

    There are many things about America that I love and I am glad I was born into such privilege. I also love the freedoms that we have versus the next country. But pride... I have no place for that in my heart.

    Pride is little more than self-reward. Sometimes it is justified, but always it is delusional. If you are too busy feeling good about yourself then you are more prone to avoiding your mistakes or fatal flaws. No victory is an excuse to self-aggrandize in perpetuity - inner work is constant, whether on the individual or national levels. Self-empowerment does not come from pride, but true accomplishment through adversity, and through integrating both the light and shadow aspects of yourself.

    Pride never has and never will be what makes America great - it is hard work, blood, sweat, and tears. If you become too attached to patting yourself on the back you lose scope of all the work that remains to be done. It's never over, especially in a nation that requires eternal vigilance of its freedoms to the degree America does.

    Pride has made our nation lazy.
    ...all this argues against is excessive pride.
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-26-11 at 12:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  9. #129
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I'd be proud of a movement in general of which I was a part. I've been in small-scale situations like that in the past. My pride in it would have to do with the fact that I was directly involved in its existence and execution.

    I have also been in situations where I have been merely "listened to." And I must say I don't care for it. I don't really like heirarchical thinking. I don't like being in the position myself, and I don't like people being sheepish. It's not something that I can respect. I want to know what they actually think, and if they agree, I want to know what their ideas are and I want them to help.

    While I acknowledge there is such a thing as leaders and followers, I think the followers serve a very important purpose, and I don't see them executing it as much as they should. I think that purpose is to be the "double-check" of the leader's ideas. Leaders are frequently the sorts of people who are a bit unhinged, and that double-check is necessary.

    I don't see leader-follower as a hierarchy. I see it as a difference of purpose, but both have a purpose. To me it's more like hypothesis-testing.

    So you don't feel proud of things you aren't associated with? That's all national pride really is. Pride by association.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
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  10. #130
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    So you don't feel proud of things you aren't associated with? That's all national pride really is. Pride by association.
    No. Appreciative, perhaps - depends what it is. But not proud. I didn't do anything to make it so. What have I got to be proud of?
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-26-11 at 01:04 AM.

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