View Poll Results: Are you proud to be an American?

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  • Yes.

    52 73.24%
  • No.

    19 26.76%
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Thread: Are you proud to be an American?

  1. #91
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by lewstherin View Post
    you're the one that thought pointing out reality made you the victim.
    i'm a victim of no one. i'm not a liberal.
    You weren't pointing out reality. All you did was show your ass.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I really don't understand comments like this.
    I would be amenable to elaborating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Having been born in and lived in eastern Europe, I almost can't help but be proud of this country.
    I can perfectly understand why you would prefer to live in this country, there's no rational reason why you should be proud of this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    For all its faults, this is a great place to live
    That's somewhat subjective, however; compared with most of the world, that's accurate. However, compared to the rest of the Western world, the United States is less ideal by almost every metric. I'm certainly glad that I don't have to deal with the crushing social problems in the Palestinian territories, or Sudan, however, that doesn't mean that things can't be better, or that we should turn a blind eye to the problems that do exist. Also, none of the liberties we have in this country are fundamentally 'American', there's no reason why Palestinians, the Sudanese, etc., shouldn't, or couldn't have similarly free societies, or, even, much freer societies. Americans are not inherently better than anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    with a rich and altruistic history --
    'Rich' is fairly noncommittal. 'Altruistic'? Compared to what? Cuba is more 'altruistic' than the United States.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    sure it's done some pretty despicable things.
    ...And continues to do so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    But what country hasn't?
    By that reasoning, no-one ever has to be accountable for anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I like the United States.
    You can feel however you want about it. I mean, great, I guess, but this has nothing to do with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I'm proud to live in a place with such a Constitution --
    It ceratainly serves a purpose. It's good that certain rights are enshrined in American law. However, it's important to note that, first, the state is incapable of creating rights, it can only choose to respect them. Second, rights weren't just handed down to us on a magical piece of paper. Many Americans fought and bled for them. Freedom of speech, for example, while included in the Bill of Rights, didn't exist until 1969. It's also a constant struggle to preserve and protect these rights, which are constantly under assault. The PATRIOT Act, for example, is an assault on civil rights. finally, one should never have to be greatful for not being denied basic human rights, the definition of a basic human right is the bare minimum which every human being should be accorded by virtue of the fact they are alive.

    Also, again, nation-states are fundamentally illegitimate institutions, therefore, they should not exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    a place that supports freedom in word and in spirit, if not always in deed.
    I don't see that supporting freedom simply in words is especially meaningful. Any despot can make professions about high-minded concepts like justice, etc. What people do is what matters most. On that front, the United States is the most prolific perpetrator and sponsor of international terrorism. Also, there have been empirical studies showing an, overall, inverse relationship between US military aid and human rights; the most opressive regimes have consistently been the largest beneficiaries of US support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    And you, you who have had the fortune of being born here from the beginning of your lives? I would think you'd be even more proud than I am.
    Again, I'm proud of what I've done, what I'm responsible for, just as I'm ashamed of things that I'm responsible for. It is fundamentally irrational to take pride in the fact that I happened to have been born in the United States, I did not contribute to this in any way, whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I hope you're at least thankful.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    Trust me, it could be a lot worse than this.
    Most definitely.
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  3. #93
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    You weren't pointing out reality. All you did was show your ass.
    i've never taken a photo of my ass. no image of it has ever been displayed on this forum.
    “The ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.”
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  4. #94
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Exactly. Which is why I don't see a point to being proud of the place where one is accidentally born.

    What exactly is there to be proud of? I didn't make this country.

    If you want the honest truth, I have had two opportunities to leave this country permanently, and move somewhere where I could have had a better quality of life and a more tolerant society.

    I turned down that opportunity both times. Not because I didn't want to. Not because I wasn't happier there - I was. I miss it. I have days where I regret that decision.

    I chose to turn it down because there are too many people here I love who are struggling, and I can't be ok with giving up on that quite yet.

    While it is true there are much, much worse places I could have been born, the horn America toots for itself is completely undeserved. We make up the very tail end of the truly developed world. We are the last to acknowledge every single civil rights movement that has taken place over our history. We are the least tolerant. We have the lowest quality of life, the highest crime, the lowest life expectancy. And we call ourselves the best nation on earth. We're not. Not by a long shot.

    Every country has its problems, but most of them aren't so arrogant about trying to pretend they don't exist. That arrogance is why we seem unable to fix it.

    And yet, I grew up with a very traditional American message. A message given to me by my father, whose family has been here since before the Revolution, and fought in the Revolution on the side of the colonies. I was taught to stand up for what I think is right, to be loud about it, to be involved in my government, to vote, to protest, to take the First Amendment and carry it around with me everywhere. When I was working for a paper, I carried a copy of the Constitution in my back pocket, and I protested in front of the White House against the Iraq War when I was 15.

    I am not proud to be American. But that does not mean I don't believe in the potential of this country, and that I am not thankful for the opportunites I do have.

    And I think it is far better to care enough to be ashamed of when your country fails to live up to its potential than to be proud for no logical reason.

    I came back here not because I was proud, but because I was ashamed. And because I am thankful that I have more opportunity to fix that here than I would most other places - the rest of the developed world included - and because I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try.
    First off, if you don't see a point in being "proud" of a country, then why do you see a point in being "ashamed" in it? You've already said there's no point in being proud of the patch of dirt you were born on. So what? You see the "potential" to be proud of said dirt? Seems contradictory.

    Second of all..the very tail? of the developed world?

    Funny.

    We're ranked #4 on the UN Human Development Index list. It was the United States that rejected balance-of-power diplomacy in Europe and told every OTHER developed nation to get behind the idea of global democratic leadership in the form of the League of Nations and the United Nations. We were one of the first countries in the developed world to give women the right to vote. In fact, we had general universal suffrage before most countries. You think we were the only ones that had an aggressive civil rights movement in the sixties, because of some unique retardation? For someone who thinks your place of birth doesn't really matter, you seem very ready to characterize the country as if it were some sort of conscious person; "The horn America toots itself." In the midst of your pity party, did you ever once think to look up thinks America leads the world in? Or has contributed to the world? Did that ever occur to you? Or do you get off on saying things like this because you think it's a hallmark of intelligence? I'm well aware of America's faults, but I don't think our failure to solve them thus far is because of some imaginary sense of national arrogance which "no" other developed country has. That's completely ridiculous. I've seen worse discrimination on the streets of cosmopolitan European capitals than I've ever seen here. And I spend a lot of time in Georgia, so that's saying a lot. If you're here to help people because you were ashamed, let me save you some time; no one has ever accomplished anything out of shame. If you were really that ashamed, then you'd have packed up and left. I've seen national "shame." I've seen people fleeing with bags on their hands after 1991 because they knew their country had failed them. That's what being "ashamed" of a country means. Doesn't sound like you're ashamed. Just biased.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  5. #95
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    The one area where America does better than most of the rest of the developed world is freedom of speech. As such, that provides unique opportunity for change here that doesn't exist as strongly in other nations.

    Since I am already a citizen of this country by accident of birth, it is foolish for me to complain about it and do nothing. I have been presented an opportunity in a country that I find problematic. And living abroad did nothing but affirm for me how serious those problems are.

    Are you unable to parse words built for the convenience of conversation? Yes, I personified the US to save myself the time of having to write two sentences to clarify my point. Geez.

    I know of no other developed nation in which national pride is seen as normal. Your nationality is an accident of birth, and a stupid thing to take pride in. You didn't do anything. You were simply born. So what?

    I'm biased? You're the one screaming about how unappreciative people are for not taking "pride" in something they had nothing to do with. It's as stupid in taking pride in your race. And tell me, who exactly wouldn't be biased?

    Do you wish to deny we have a lower life expectancy than most of the developed world, that our crime is higher, and that we are falling behind educationally? I'd like to see you try.

    In terms of people fleeing, guess what. It's happening to America. The number of people renouncing their citizenship from America has tripled in the last couple years.

  6. #96
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    I know of no other developed nation in which national pride is seen as normal.
    ...really?

    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  7. #97
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    Because, however miniscule, you have influence over it.
    He's probably ashamed cause he made things worse.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  8. #98
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    The one area where America does better than most of the rest of the developed world is freedom of speech. As such, that provides unique opportunity for change here that doesn't exist as strongly in other nations.

    Since I am already a citizen of this country by accident of birth, it is foolish for me to complain about it and do nothing. I have been presented an opportunity in a country that I find problematic. And living abroad did nothing but affirm for me how serious those problems are.

    Are you unable to parse words built for the convenience of conversation? Yes, I personified the US to save myself the time of having to write two sentences to clarify my point. Geez.

    I know of no other developed nation in which national pride is seen as normal. Your nationality is an accident of birth, and a stupid thing to take pride in. You didn't do anything. You were simply born. So what?

    I'm biased? You're the one screaming about how unappreciative people are for not taking "pride" in something they had nothing to do with. It's as stupid in taking pride in your race. And tell me, who exactly wouldn't be biased?

    Do you wish to deny we have a lower life expectancy than most of the developed world, that our crime is higher, and that we are falling behind educationally? I'd like to see you try.

    In terms of people fleeing, guess what. It's happening to America. The number of people renouncing their citizenship from America has tripled in the last couple years.
    I repeat, if there's no point in being proud of your country, what's the point in being ashamed?
    Last edited by Jeezy; 06-25-11 at 11:04 PM.
    SWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAGSWAG
    Quote Originally Posted by Josie
    Thanks for your awesomeness, Jeezy.

  9. #99
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    ...really?

    Not that I've ever been to. Even people who like their country recognize how ridiculous it is to be "proud" of being from that country.

  10. #100
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    Re: Are you proud to be an American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeezy View Post
    I repeat, if there's no point in being proud of your country, what's the point in being ashamed?
    And I repeat, because I have the ability to influence it. The fact that it is an accident of birth is irrelevant.

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