View Poll Results: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5?

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Thread: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rights?

  1. #41
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Article 1.
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
    I think America would earn an A in this area.
    Article 2.
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
    I would say America scores a C in this area due to the fact that we have legalized abortions.
    Article 3.
    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
    I would give America an F in this area due to allowing elective abortions and the blatant oppression of the right to life and security of person of human beings.
    Article 4.
    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
    Article 5.
    I say we earn an A here. We don't have slavery in this country.
    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
    I say we earn a B in this area. Overall I would grade America with a C.
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Highly improbable, as I am not a thief. Hint for avoiding imprisonment: don't steal **** that ain't yours.



    The latter is not a realistic expression of what would happen to you in America. You would not be given life imprisonment, unless this was your third related felony. Being raped daily while in prison is possible but hardly an absolute or part of the sentence. It will depend on many factors, not least of which is what prison you are sent to, which in part depends on your behavior. Behave yourself and you could be a in a well-ordered low-sec prison where violence is rare; act like an ass and you could end up in a hi-sec with the worst of the worst and yeah, you might end up someone's bitch if you're not tough enough.

    Could we/should we do a better job of keeping prison inmates safe inside? Sure. Is it as bad as you're portraying? Not nearly. Also, when you lock the worst scum up together, as I say, they tend to make their own hell because that's how they are...








    Bah. You're overstating this matter by several orders of magnitude.
    I think you're glossing over the fact that the U.S. has many unnecessary laws, or laws whose punishment is disproportionate to the crime committed; or steep and severe punishments for non-violent crimes. A comparatively huge number of our population are in jail right now. Part of the reason is our unbalanced punitive model; another reason is the private incarceration system whose well being is tied to American economy and, in my locales, primary employment.

    Our criminal justice system needs reform BADLY. This is not something that Kandahar is making up. Even Amnesty International has reported on the state of the U.S. system. We throw people in jail for obscure reasons; we punish people for laws broken that were not obvious in the first place. People in this country aren't even fully aware of some of the laws that can land them in jail because the laws were not created sensibly or the public is not sufficiently educated.

    From here:
    # 1 United States: 2,019,234 prisoners
    # 2 China: 1,549,000 prisoners
    # 3 Russia: 846,967 prisoners
    # 4 India: 313,635 prisoners
    # 5 Brazil: 308,304 prisoners

    Per Capita
    # 1 United States: 715 per 100,000 people
    # 2 Russia: 584 per 100,000 people
    # 3 Belarus: 554 per 100,000 people
    # 4 Palau: 523 per 100,000 people
    # 5 Belize: 459 per 100,000 people

    I agree with you that some prisoners make their own hell, but you can't just generalize in all cases. The worst offenders need to be isolated and often times they are not until they commit a violent act openly against another inmate. Private acts of violence happen all the time in American prisons, including rape, intimidation, and gang related assault. The guards are often in on it. The fact is that American prisons are known the world over for being some of the worst. I work in a diplomatic field, and although what I do is not related to the justice system, I still have my finger on the pulse of the international community and this is one area where the message is consistently the same: avoid the American criminal justice system at all costs.

  3. #43
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporal View Post
    I think you're glossing over the fact that the U.S. has many unnecessary laws, or laws whose punishment is disproportionate to the crime committed; or steep and severe punishments for non-violent crimes. A comparatively huge number of our population are in jail right now. Part of the reason is our unbalanced punitive model; another reason is the private incarceration system whose well being is tied to American economy and, in my locales, primary employment.

    Our criminal justice system needs reform BADLY. This is not something that Kandahar is making up. Even Amnesty International has reported on the state of the U.S. system. We throw people in jail for obscure reasons; we punish people for laws broken that were not obvious in the first place. People in this country aren't even fully aware of some of the laws that can land them in jail because the laws were not created sensibly or the public is not sufficiently educated.

    From here:
    # 1 United States: 2,019,234 prisoners
    # 2 China: 1,549,000 prisoners
    # 3 Russia: 846,967 prisoners
    # 4 India: 313,635 prisoners
    # 5 Brazil: 308,304 prisoners

    Per Capita
    # 1 United States: 715 per 100,000 people
    # 2 Russia: 584 per 100,000 people
    # 3 Belarus: 554 per 100,000 people
    # 4 Palau: 523 per 100,000 people
    # 5 Belize: 459 per 100,000 people

    I agree with you that some prisoners make their own hell, but you can't just generalize in all cases. The worst offenders need to be isolated and often times they are not until they commit a violent act openly against another inmate. Private acts of violence happen all the time in American prisons, including rape, intimidation, and gang related assault. The guards are often in on it. The fact is that American prisons are known the world over for being some of the worst. I work in a diplomatic field, and although what I do is not related to the justice system, I still have my finger on the pulse of the international community and this is one area where the message is consistently the same: avoid the American criminal justice system at all costs.

    I do not disagree with you entirely. I think we DO have too many laws, and too many obscure laws with severe punishements that are NOT common-sense-everybody-knows-you-don't-do-that. Like it being potentially a felony to bring certain plants or animals into the country from outside.

    As I've said, I also support the legalization of weed and its production and supply chain, and might consider other drugs that are not inherently too toxic. I was a footsoldier in the War On Some Drugs and I know that we lost that war a long time ago. I don't like the increased police-statism that the WoD has caused either.

    Nor have I disputed that the system could be reformed and made better than it is.

    What I dispute is that it as bad as Kandahar paints it; pretending that daily rape is automatic if incarcerated, pretending that our system is worse than Saud, Iran or China. That's just ludicrous.

    Frankly many nations in the EU are FAR worse than we are about how they treat SUSPECTS. There are innumerable horror stories about the way that European police treat people accused of a crime.

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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Article 1.
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
    Lets break this up:

    "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights." OK, no problem here.

    "They are endowed with reason and conscience . . ." This is generally true.

    " . . . and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." FAIL.


    Article 2.
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
    Breaking this one down:

    "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status." This just says "we mean it, no exceptions". We got this down for the most part (various Indian Tribes are a special exception.)

    "Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty." This statement cannot hold its water. It is the duty of government to hold distinguishments for people who are Citizens of a Country as apposed to those who are from a Foreign State. These distinguishments would include the disposition of said persons who face an Indictment or the ability to own real estate beyond say a home or a small business. (Given time I may think of other areas such should be.) I would give us a C here in part due to problems with the politicals in power allowing Illegals their continued presence here while requiring the Citizens to jump thru hoops that are quietly ignored for the Illegals.


    Article 3.
    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
    Notice that they did not say property or possessions or "pursuit of happiness" or "integrity of life" just their person. Thanks to the Supremes and the Professional Politicians each of these are under assault and being undermind.



    Article 4.
    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
    We have this down pat except when we do find these underground operations we do not execute the perpetrators.



    Article 5.

    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

    As mentioned elsewhere on the thread we do FAIL here. We have laws against Some Drugs that the Fed Govt at least should have no business attending to and draconian penalties for violators. Growing is the establishment of "thought crimes" which is often based on supposition and adds extra penalties to a violation of law.
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  5. #45
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    It is the United Nations. There is no need to go any further.
    United Nations, which the US helped to create, was a very different creature in 1946 than it is today. The U.S. was instrumental in drafting the thirty articles of the Declaration of Human Rights. Such a statement denies the history of the document and shows that you are not going to even attempt to engage in critical thinking?
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  6. #46
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Highly improbable, as I am not a thief. Hint for avoiding imprisonment: don't steal **** that ain't yours.
    Unless you are suggesting that even petty criminals deserve whatever happens to them (which I assume you aren't since you acknowledged that our system needs some reform), then this is irrelevant.

    The latter is not a realistic expression of what would happen to you in America. You would not be given life imprisonment, unless this was your third related felony.
    Oh, well as long as you stole THREE cars instead of one, then I guess spending your life in a cage and getting gangraped daily is perfectly acceptable.

    Being raped daily while in prison is possible but hardly an absolute or part of the sentence. It will depend on many factors, not least of which is what prison you are sent to, which in part depends on your behavior. Behave yourself and you could be a in a well-ordered low-sec prison where violence is rare; act like an ass and you could end up in a hi-sec with the worst of the worst and yeah, you might end up someone's bitch if you're not tough enough.
    Sexual slavery and prison gangs are common even in medium security prisons...where a prisoner will usually end up if their sentence is 10+ years long (regardless of the severity of their actual crime, or whether they are violent).

    Could we/should we do a better job of keeping prison inmates safe inside? Sure. Is it as bad as you're portraying? Not nearly.
    I think you have no idea how horrible our prisons are. In any case, the BJS statistics disagree with you...not to mention a casual glance at our incarceration rate, which is a huge problem in and of itself.

    Also, when you lock the worst scum up together, as I say, they tend to make their own hell because that's how they are...
    Most people in prison just want to be left alone to serve their time without being attacked. Not everyone is a rapist or a murderer...and even many of those who are don't pose a danger to their fellow inmates. The ones who do should be separated.

    Bah. You're overstating this matter by several orders of magnitude.
    If you don't believe the BJS statistics (which indicated that there were over 70,000 prison rapes *reported* annually), then just look at our simple incarceration rates. Even if the conditions in prison were acceptable, which they aren't, it is still grotesque how many people we incarcerate in the first place.

    Re: overstating this matter by several orders of magnitude. I'm sure that Saudi officials who cut off people's hands, or Iranian officials who stone people to death could truthfully say exactly the same thing about THEIR systems.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-26-11 at 08:08 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I I say we earn an A here. We don't have slavery in this country.
    Though legally prohibited, this statement is not true. There is slavery in the U.S. and just about every other country in the world, TODAY!
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    United Nations, which the US helped to create, was a very different creature in 1946 than it is today. The U.S. was instrumental in drafting the thirty articles of the Declaration of Human Rights. Such a statement denies the history of the document and shows that you are not going to even attempt to engage in critical thinking?
    I have already engaged in critical thinking. If it originates in the United Nations it is automatically suspect. I will reject it.

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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I have already engaged in critical thinking. If it originates in the United Nations it is automatically suspect. I will reject it.
    That isn't critical thinking, that is reactionary actions without actually engaging in thought to assess the document and the history thereof...
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    That isn't critical thinking, that is reactionary actions without actually engaging in thought to assess the document and the history thereof...
    I am not required to give you the history of my critical thinking. LOL.
    The United Nations is a great place to spy at. I think it belongs in France. It does not belong in the US. Nor does the US belong in it.

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