View Poll Results: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5?

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Thread: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rights?

  1. #21
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world by far, and conditions in American prisons essentially amount to state-sanctioned sexual slavery (most countries don't have tacky "drop the soap" jokes). People in this country are routinely sentenced to prison for years for victimless drug crimes, or for things that they didn't even KNOW were crimes. In most countries, people at least know whether they're doing something that can land them in prison, but that is not always the case here. Our criminal justice system is among the worst in the world...far worse than countries like China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.

    I'm sorry but bull****.

    How much time have you spent in prison? I've spent more than a little time in them in my law enforcement past. They aren't as nice as some people think, but they are hardly hellholes. Most inmates are in mid to low security prisons which from what I've seen are pretty orderly and not really that violent. Granted that some hi-sec prisons where they incarcerate the worst-of-the-worst are a different story, but there's only so much you can do with scum. They make their own hell.

    Our criminal justice system is WORSE than China's, where they execute dissidents and make the family pay for the bullet?? WORSE than Iran's, where they hang, stone or decapitate girls unfortunate enough to get raped?? WORSE than Saudi Arabia where violations of Sharia can get you stoned or chopped?? That is one of the most outrageously unfactual claims I've ever heard. I'm tempted to ask what you've been smoking.

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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Seriously?

    About the only "gay right" that isn't universal is SSM, and SSM is permitted in several states. Based on Massachusetts there aren't really that many gay couples that even want to get married... like less than 1/2 % of the population. Compare that to Iran, where they execute homosexuals, and you really think SSM is such a big huge deal?
    Don't forget about serving openly in the military, there's also the matter of issues that involve "immediate family" only, not to mention potential tax breaks that married couples and married couples with children that gay households cannot receive for the most part.

    There's also the issue of our criminal Justice system, and this:




    Sourced from here:
    http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/rese...op-seventh.pdf

    The US has more people in person in total numbers AND as a percentage of population than any other country on earth that we can reasonably track. I say reasonably because of places like North Korea, or China which has a number on this list but I wouldn't count on it being exactly accurate. But either way the number of people in prison in the US is ridiculous, I think the problem has to do with the fact that many District prosecutors are elected and not appointed, of course in an election where your job is to prosecute criminals everyone wants to hear you're going to be the toughest mother ****er on the block, and they deliver. The same with politicians who want to be "tough on crime" and pass laws requiring minimum sentences for petty petty crimes.

    I post this article a while ago and its still a great read if you have the time, and I beg you to read it, its only about three pages long and comes from the Economist which is a reputable news service. It will open your eyes
    Rough justice in America: Too many laws, too many prisoners | The Economist

    Justice is harsher in America than in any other rich country. Between 2.3m and 2.4m Americans are behind bars, roughly one in every 100 adults. If those on parole or probation are included, one adult in 31 is under “correctional” supervision. As a proportion of its total population, America incarcerates five times more people than Britain, nine times more than Germany and 12 times more than Japan. Overcrowding is the norm. Federal prisons house 60% more inmates than they were designed for. State lock-ups are only slightly less stuffed.

  3. #23
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Don't forget about serving openly in the military, there's also the matter of issues that involve "immediate family" only, not to mention potential tax breaks that married couples and married couples with children that gay households cannot receive for the most part.

    There's also the issue of our criminal Justice system, and this:




    Sourced from here:
    http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/rese...op-seventh.pdf

    The US has more people in person in total numbers AND as a percentage of population than any other country on earth that we can reasonably track. I say reasonably because of places like North Korea, or China which has a number on this list but I wouldn't count on it being exactly accurate. But either way the number of people in prison in the US is ridiculous, I think the problem has to do with the fact that many District prosecutors are elected and not appointed, of course in an election where your job is to prosecute criminals everyone wants to hear you're going to be the toughest mother ****er on the block, and they deliver. The same with politicians who want to be "tough on crime" and pass laws requiring minimum sentences for petty petty crimes.

    I post this article a while ago and its still a great read if you have the time, and I beg you to read it, its only about three pages long and comes from the Economist which is a reputable news service. It will open your eyes
    Rough justice in America: Too many laws, too many prisoners | The Economist
    Your first argument is invalid as we are currently reforming the military to allow openly-gay servicepersons. Your second is related to SSM which I've already addressed; it is legal in some states, not in others, but there appear to be very very few that really want it anyway, so I don't see it as such a huge deal.


    If you recall I support legalizing the use and production of at least some drugs, which is about half of our prison population.

    However, you look at Britain. They have a far higher rate of violent crime than we do. Why? 1. They coddle criminals... 2. they make it hard for honest citizens to defend themselves.

    Our prison rates shot up after "three strikes" became common. Our crime rates also started to plummet. I expect there was a connection: keep habitual criminals in prison.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-26-11 at 02:30 AM.

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  4. #24
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Article 1.
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

    Article 2.
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

    Article 3.
    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

    Article 4.
    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
    Article 5.

    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
    - 1 letter grade for Gitmo and the security establishment since 9/11.
    - 1 letter grade for the state of our healthcare and homosexual rights.

    So that gives us a C

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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    I agree with much of what you say, but I don't think our criminal justice system is worse than that of Iran where they stone women to death for adultery and hang people for being homosexual.
    Yep, Iran's justice system is terrible too...but a lot fewer people are subjected to it than are subjected to ours. Incarcerating nonviolent criminals is America's new national pastime. And it's true that we don't punish people for adultery or homosexuality, but we certainly have our share of equally ridiculous "crimes" that can land people in prison.
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    How much time have you spent in prison? I've spent more than a little time in them in my law enforcement past. They aren't as nice as some people think, but they are hardly hellholes. Most inmates are in mid to low security prisons which from what I've seen are pretty orderly and not really that violent. Granted that some hi-sec prisons where they incarcerate the worst-of-the-worst are a different story, but there's only so much you can do with scum. They make their own hell.
    According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics there are approximately 70,000 reported prison rapes annually. And that's just the ones that are reported. Many people just want to serve their time and be left alone, not everyone is trying to "make their own hell." And the ones who do should be isolated from other prisoners.

    Our criminal justice system is WORSE than China's, where they execute dissidents and make the family pay for the bullet??
    But far fewer than what deal with OUR unjust system.

    WORSE than Iran's, where they hang, stone or decapitate girls unfortunate enough to get raped??
    Far fewer than what deal with OUR unjust system.

    WORSE than Saudi Arabia where violations of Sharia can get you stoned or chopped??
    Far fewer than what deal with OUR unjust system.

    That is one of the most outrageously unfactual claims I've ever heard. I'm tempted to ask what you've been smoking.
    I'm not saying that we should look to these regimes as a model of human rights...but it's hard to claim any sort of moral high ground over them when our own criminal justice system is among the most barbaric in the world. I find it incredibly naive when people gasp in horror at the thought of Saudi police cutting off someone's hand for, say, stealing a car...yet you can receive a far worse penalty than that in the American justice system, such as being raped daily and locked in a cage for the rest of your life. The main difference is that we incarcerate a lot MORE people than those countries we look down on for their human rights records.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-26-11 at 04:57 AM.
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Your first argument is invalid as we are currently reforming the military to allow openly-gay servicepersons. Your second is related to SSM which I've already addressed; it is legal in some states, not in others, but there appear to be very very few that really want it anyway, so I don't see it as such a huge deal.


    If you recall I support legalizing the use and production of at least some drugs, which is about half of our prison population.

    However, you look at Britain. They have a far higher rate of violent crime than we do. Why? 1. They coddle criminals... 2. they make it hard for honest citizens to defend themselves.

    Our prison rates shot up after "three strikes" became common. Our crime rates also started to plummet. I expect there was a connection: keep habitual criminals in prison.
    Regarding homosexuals again, there are other organizations like the Boy Scouts for example which officially do not allow atheist or homosexual members yet they receive Federal Funding. Now I suppose if its a private group they can do as they please, but receiving Federal funding for discrimination irks me. Now since its a fairly decentralized organization, so its not like every chapter is the same. And to my shame I don't have a source, I found one but now I can't locate it again, so if you disbelief that I wouldn't blame you.

    As for the criminal justice system, do you have any data on UK vs US crime rates? And kudos for the support of legalization of some drugs.

  8. #28
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    This is irrelevant to me, anyway. I'm opposed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  9. #29
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I'm sorry but bull****.

    How much time have you spent in prison? I've spent more than a little time in them in my law enforcement past. They aren't as nice as some people think, but they are hardly hellholes. Most inmates are in mid to low security prisons which from what I've seen are pretty orderly and not really that violent. Granted that some hi-sec prisons where they incarcerate the worst-of-the-worst are a different story, but there's only so much you can do with scum. They make their own hell.

    Our criminal justice system is WORSE than China's, where they execute dissidents and make the family pay for the bullet?? WORSE than Iran's, where they hang, stone or decapitate girls unfortunate enough to get raped?? WORSE than Saudi Arabia where violations of Sharia can get you stoned or chopped?? That is one of the most outrageously unfactual claims I've ever heard. I'm tempted to ask what you've been smoking.
    I partly agree with you here. Federal prisons are especially well taken care of, but that's not the point. The point is we have ridiculous, stupid laws that people get jailed for and we have a ridiculous incarceration rate.

    And torture definitely brought us down.

  10. #30
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    Re: How does your country stand up on Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rig

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Article 1.
    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

    Article 2.
    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

    Article 3.
    Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

    Article 4.
    No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
    Article 5.

    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

    Articles 1-5 of the Universal Dec. of Human Rights are bogus any place Abortion is legal PERIOD.

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