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Should Eric Holder face charges?

Should Eric Holder face charges for Operation Fast and Furious?

  • Yes, it was treason resulting in the death of an agent.

    Votes: 8 61.5%

  • Yes, he should face jail time for this unauthorized operation.

    Votes: 3 23.1%

  • No, but he should be forced to resign and investigated

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • No, the attorney general is above the law

    Votes: 1 7.7%
  • Total voters
    13
  • Poll closed .
F

friday

Well-known member
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Location
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Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Operation Fast and Furious was an operation run by the ATF to purposely get weapons in the hands of Mexican drug cartels. There was no way of following these weapons, and in fact there was apparently no part of the operation that would bring about a positive result for getting these weapons across the border.

Already, at least one border agent has been killed by one of these weapons.

Obama has claimed plausible deniability and says that Holder came up with the operation and ran it and Obama had no previous knowledge of the operation before one of the ATF agents blew the whistle on it.

So, with the Attorney General running secret operations to sell US weapons to Mexican drug cartels for no beneficial reason resulting in the death of a border agent, what should be the consequences?
 
I'm going to have to hear all the details before I pass judgement. However, I very much disliked Holder BEFORE this got public so at the very least, I hope the US can be rid of him as attorney general.
 
Any articles on this you can link us to?
 
Do you have any information on the purpose of Fast and Furious? I can think of a couple of scenarios in which it would be legitimate statecraft, and the death of that agent-- however tragic-- an acceptable loss.
 
Eric Holder is a traitor, and should be treated as such. He should be sentenced to hard labor for life, at our toughest, meanest, Federal prison, if such a thing exists.
 
ElCid said:
Eric Holder is a traitor, and should be treated as such. He should be sentenced to hard labor for life, at our toughest, meanest, Federal prison, if such a thing exists.
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Wtffffffffffffff

Anyways friday can you give information on this?
 
friday said:
There was no way of following these weapons, and in fact there was apparently no part of the operation that would bring about a positive result for getting these weapons across the border.
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This is patently false.

House Panel Slams 'Fast and Furious' Gun Operation Tied to Border Agent's Death - FoxNews.com

What happened was that the ATF did an undercover operation in which they would let weapons that they the bullet rifling pattern recorded be sold by illegal arms dealers, primarily to Mexico. What they wanted to do with this was to be able to track down the flow of illegal weapons sales.

They wanted to try to track these sales to the top people in illegal cartels so they could pursue further law enforcement operations against them and get rid of them.

Unfortunately, the ATF went too long in not going after the people that eventually got ahold of the weapons. This has led to deaths, especially the death of a border guard.

This is what the issue, minus the hyperbole, is all about.
 
Regarding your poll, it's the height of hyperbole as well.

I don't think Eric Holder should face any charges, but not because he's above the law.

Rather he shouldn't face any charges because he didn't do anything illegal.

"Operation Fast and Furious" was part of an undercover operation. Contraband, such as illegal weapons and illegal drugs, among other things, get routinely sold by law enforcement agencies to criminal organizations as a part of such operations. This is done to track the illegal sales of these items so that law enforcement agencies can get all of the criminals involved in these enterprises.

Some times Bad Things happen as a result of such operations. However, that's the way things go. It is incredibly unfortunate that people have lost their lives because of those weapons. However, if those criminals did not get those weapons from the undercover operation they would have likely gotten those weapons some other way. I can only hope that the operation will allow the ATF to shut down the illegal arms rings involved and put them in jail for a seriously long time.
 
samsmart said:
This is patently false.

House Panel Slams 'Fast and Furious' Gun Operation Tied to Border Agent's Death - FoxNews.com

What happened was that the ATF did an undercover operation in which they would let weapons that they the bullet rifling pattern recorded be sold by illegal arms dealers, primarily to Mexico. What they wanted to do with this was to be able to track down the flow of illegal weapons sales.

They wanted to try to track these sales to the top people in illegal cartels so they could pursue further law enforcement operations against them and get rid of them.

Unfortunately, the ATF went too long in not going after the people that eventually got ahold of the weapons. This has led to deaths, especially the death of a border guard.

This is what the issue, minus the hyperbole, is all about.
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The referenced link includes the following:

Findings from the preliminary report include:

-- Agents expected to interdict weapons, yet were told to stand down and “just surveil.” Agents therefore did not act. They watched straw purchasers buy hundreds of weapons illegally and transfer those weapons to unknown third parties and stash houses.

-- ATF agents complained about the strategy of allowing guns to walk in Operation Fast and Furious. Leadership ignored their concerns. Instead, supervisors told the agents to “get with the program” because senior ATF officials had sanctioned the operation.

-- Agents knew that given the large numbers of weapons being trafficked to Mexico, tragic results were a near certainty.

-- Operation Fast and Furious contributed to the increasing violence and deaths in Mexico. This result was regarded with "giddy" optimism by ATF supervisors hoping that guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico would provide the nexus to straw purchasers in Phoenix.

That last finding is sure to anger Mexico, which has so far been muted in its criticism. In a March 2010 memo, ATF says it allowed gun smugglers to buy 359 guns while 958 people died in Mexico the same month. Internally, the agency was "trumpeting up the violence that was occurring as a result of an ATF sanctioned program."
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This sort of operation was, thank God, far outside of my own LE experiences. I wouldn't have wanted any part in it.

Yes, sometimes contraband is allowed to change hands in order to get convictions further up the food chain. The idea is to eventually recover the contraband, at least in most operations I've heard about, and to have a viable plan of doing so.

Calling this treason appears to be way over the top, IMO. An ill-concieved, ill-planned, ill-conducted total cluster-****, yes. Treason... no. Certain idiots need to lose their jobs over this, sure.
 
Goshin said:
...Yes, sometimes contraband is allowed to change hands in order to get convictions further up the food chain. The idea is to eventually recover the contraband, at least in most operations I've heard about, and to have a viable plan of doing so.

Calling this treason appears to be way over the top, IMO. An ill-concieved, ill-planned, ill-conducted total cluster-****, yes. Treason... no. Certain idiots need to lose their jobs over this, sure.
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I agree with this. Based on what I've read and heard on the news about this, there wasn't anything illegal about the plan itself, and there probably wasn't anything illegal in the fact that it turned into a giant cluster-****. There may have been some illegalities after the fact to cover up said cluster-****, and if so the people involved should be prosecuted.

Damn sure whoever was in charge of supervising this abyssmal mess should be fired.
 
At the very least, the man should be fired and leave in disgrace. I think he should be investigated and if criminal negligence or his utter stupidity cost people lives (and I think there's been lots of Mexican citizens killed by these guns and at least one American that we know of so far), the man should be up on charges. Certainly there should be an investigation after he's fired... I'd like to know how they thought they'd work this ...
 
Holder is guilty of much more than this,and if Treason is out of the question how about accessory to murder of a Border Patrol Agent, for which he should face life without parole.

Sorry bastard.
 
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Councilman said:
Holder is guilty of much more than this,and if Treason is out of the question how about accessory to murder of a Border Patrol Agent, for which he should face life parole.Sorry bastard.
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I like the way you roll, Podna.
 
I understand that you believe that Eric Holder is actually running a MexicanDrug Cartell. Do you think he has escaped to Mexico? Should we declare war and get him?!
 
friday said:
Operation Fast and Furious was an operation run by the ATF to purposely get weapons in the hands of Mexican drug cartels. There was no way of following these weapons, and in fact there was apparently no part of the operation that would bring about a positive result for getting these weapons across the border.

Already, at least one border agent has been killed by one of these weapons.

Obama has claimed plausible deniability and says that Holder came up with the operation and ran it and Obama had no previous knowledge of the operation before one of the ATF agents blew the whistle on it.

So, with the Attorney General running secret operations to sell US weapons to Mexican drug cartels for no beneficial reason resulting in the death of a border agent, what should be the consequences?
Click to expand...

I believe the idiots who thought it was a smart idea to sell weapons to criminals should be fired and sent to prison. The one thing law enforcement should not do is sell weapons to known criminals gangs especially those outside the US. I fail to see how bullet rifling pattern could be used to catch criminals in countries we have no jurisdiction in and countries whose governments are so corrupt that they are not going to give a squat about cartels buying so called illegal weapons.

I have to wonder if this was used so that 2nd amendment opponents in the US can try to further **** on the 2nd amendment.
 
Eric Holder should be arrested and charged with crimes against American People and Mexican People, it seem that Obama believes its ok to let Mexico file a lawsuit against Arizona for upholding Laws that our useless Fed Government wont, yet Eric Holder and his band of thugs can allow people to die at the hands of illegal firearms in a program he had been warned not to attempt. Allowing a Mexican Lawsuit against Holder and the DOJ to go forward is only right at this point. Fire Eric Holder NOW. Obama and his entire administration are propelling this nation into lawlessness, these arrogant lying Marxist ideologues should be on trial. NOT running the country into the ground.
Its become quite apparent to most Americans that this Admin cares not one iota for our Laws and Constitution. I certainly hope Americans from all over the country step forward to fight this criminal subterfuge that is being perpetrated against the nation. DAMN them ALL.
 
Man, the crazy comes out earlier and earlier lately. This was an operation gone-wrong. It happens. At least we're making a concerted effort to investigate and discover the inner workings of Mexican drug cartels. The Mexican government is doing little, if anything. In the 90s and 2000s both Clinton and Bush authorized the sale of guns to Mexican army and police forces. These guns ended up in the hands of cartels through force and defection. Should we go after both of their attorneys general, too? We're going to have some pretty big tragedies while we try to make these cartels impotent. We aren't always going to succeed. And lives on both sides will be lost because of it.

I'm not happy with the outcome of this operation. It sounds like there was a top-down failure that indirectly led to the death of a border agent. But let's not kid ourselves here. If those guns had never been sold as part of the operation the asshole who shot our border agent would have acquired a weapon some other way.
 
Prosecuted? No. Fired? It should have happened already.
 
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