View Poll Results: If it was Nazi Germany all over again, America should

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  • Butt in

    43 70.49%
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    7 11.48%
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    7 11.48%
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Thread: If

  1. #241
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    Re: If

    It is in the strategic interests of the United States that no potentially hostile power become a trans-continental Empire. A Europe dominated by the Third Reich would have had enormous resources at its disposal. Assuming such a victory in this war it seems inevitable that Germany would have metastasized to North Africa and the Middle East as was their long term intention. Likewise an Imperial Japan that holds China, Indonesia, South East Asia, possibly India, and large swathes of the Pacific under its sway or thrall is an Empire that can shut the doors of trade to the United States and begin to infringe upon it's influence and reach.

    Long term threats and the risks that you face when large tracts of the globe fall under the dominion of an ideologically incompatible or politically hostile power.

    Trade does not flow freely, political good will does not flow freely. American non-interventionism was a policy dictated by our weakness in the very early stages of the 19th Century. Almost as soon as we gained a capably funded fleet arm we began defending our interests and stakes abroad, becoming involved in policing and fighting for a free slot in Asia by the middle of that century.

    With the strength to intervene and prevent either a Nazi or Imperial Japanese dominated Asia and Europe it would have been ludicrous to allow that to come to pass uncontested. The consequences for American commerce and our political security would have been dire.

    And of course the moral component of not allowing billions of human beings to be consigned to death, slavery, and oppression. But I've tried to avoid this as modern non-interventionists seem to take perverse pleasure in flaunting how little this matters to them.

  2. #242
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    Re: If

    Step in, without a doubt. They'll be coming for us next, also, we cannot wave off innocent millions being slaughtered.
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  3. #243
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    Re: If

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    It is in the strategic interests of the United States that no potentially hostile power become a trans-continental Empire. A Europe dominated by the Third Reich would have had enormous resources at its disposal. Assuming such a victory in this war it seems inevitable that Germany would have metastasized to North Africa and the Middle East as was their long term intention. Likewise an Imperial Japan that holds China, Indonesia, South East Asia, possibly India, and large swathes of the Pacific under its sway or thrall is an Empire that can shut the doors of trade to the United States and begin to infringe upon it's influence and reach.

    Long term threats and the risks that you face when large tracts of the globe fall under the dominion of an ideologically incompatible or politically hostile power.

    Trade does not flow freely, political good will does not flow freely. American non-interventionism was a policy dictated by our weakness in the very early stages of the 19th Century. Almost as soon as we gained a capably funded fleet arm we began defending our interests and stakes abroad, becoming involved in policing and fighting for a free slot in Asia by the middle of that century.

    With the strength to intervene and prevent either a Nazi or Imperial Japanese dominated Asia and Europe it would have been ludicrous to allow that to come to pass uncontested. The consequences for American commerce and our political security would have been dire.

    And of course the moral component of not allowing billions of human beings to be consigned to death, slavery, and oppression. But I've tried to avoid this as modern non-interventionists seem to take perverse pleasure in flaunting how little this matters to them.
    I agree that allowing a belligerent power dominating Europe or the Pacific would not be in the US's best interests. Hence, I supported the antagonistic policies we had towards Japan. Germany however was a different case (prior to them declaring war on us). There were two belligerent powers in Europe at the time - Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. And the Soviets were the more threatening of the two - after all the Soviets did the heavy lifting in defeating the Nazi war machine, not Britain and the US. And Communism was a much more exportable idealogy than Nazism that was very nationalistic and therefore German in its outlook. So the Soviets were far more likely to be able to establish a world empire than the Germans, just on the basis of their ideology.

    The best policy for the west would've been to "appease" Hitler by giving into his mostly reasonable territorial demands and then let the Soviets and Nazis pummel each other. With the West being able to step in at the end and dictate a peace that allowed neither nation to establish a hegemony that would threaten the west's preminence in the world. Both the British and French empires could've survived.

    Failing that, things worked out pretty well. The US entered (or was dragged into it really by the attack by Japan and declaration of war by Germany) the war just in time to prevent a Soviet hegemony in Europe and Japan was beaten allowing the US to become the uncontested master of the Pacific.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  4. #244
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    Re: If

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    If events were unfolding in a foreign land exactly as they unfolded in Nazi Germany, what would you recommend?
    "Butt in", definitely! And I hope my country would be at America's side.

    I say that as a German, believing that America liberating (at least the Western part of) my country from Nazi tyranny and allowing us to rebuild it in freedom was the best thing that happened to my country in the 20th century.

    That said, I think many people are a bit quick calling comparing certain regimes to Nazi Germany, and it's very unlikely we'll see an almost exact repetition of these events again anytime soon. Many tyrannies may share some similarities with Nazi Germany today, but none of them is one of the technologically most advanced and militarily powerful countries of our times, and none of them has the realistic prospect of conquering world domination.

    IMO, the bigger threat we're facing today in the West is an erosion of our civil rights and basic values due to our own governments' actions and executive excesses -- extralegal detentions, denial of fair trials for suspects, massive wiretapping la "Prism" and so on. Ironically, governments will even get support for such blatant attacks on freedom when the people is afraid of foreign enemies.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  5. #245
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    Re: If

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The danger of Nazism came from the fact they ruled an extremely powerful industrial nation with an excellent military. There have been plenty of rules as bad or worse who simply didn't have the power to cause the same kind of worldwide damage. The calculus requires two parts 1) the strength of the country involved 2) the aggression of the ruling power.
    They were also admired for their socialist thought in the 1930s by all of the usual suspects in England and the US. Their socialism led to national socialism by the mid-to-late 1930s.

    Where are we today? Who will intervene? How is the fascism of Mussolini's Italy any different than our fascism? How is the National socialist socialism of Germany any different from our socialism today?

    Our federal government is now the greatest threat to our freedom. How do we overcome it as we overcame NAZI Germany's socialism?

  6. #246
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    Re: If

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    They were also admired for their socialist thought in the 1930s by all of the usual suspects in England and the US. Their socialism led to national socialism by the mid-to-late 1930s.
    That is complete garbage. The Fascists were hated by the socialists so much that they fought against them in the Spanish civil war.

    Where are we today? Who will intervene? How is the fascism of Mussolini's Italy any different than our fascism? How is the National socialist socialism of Germany any different from our socialism today?
    While our current violations of civil liberties are pretty terrible, they are not yet at the level of fascist counties of old. Our democratic structure remains intact and the people retain the power. The only problem today is overcoming apathy to actually change anything.

    Our federal government is now the greatest threat to our freedom. How do we overcome it as we overcame NAZI Germany's socialism?
    The first step is to get rid of partisan nonsense. Your unsubtle attempts to blame "socialism" for the current situation is exactly the sort of reason we are in this situation. The fact is that the majority politicians from both parties have reached consensus in violating civil liberties. They maintain power because partisan divisiveness prevents any real opposition. Either a politician supports domestic spying on our citizens or they don't: doesn't matter what letter they have next to there name or what there ideology is. We have had 12 years of crap because people give their own group a pass for pissing on our rights and we aren't going to fix anything until that changes.

  7. #247
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    Re: If

    Totally different time now.

    It's comparing apples and oranges, btw.


    I will put it this way, America should have intervened in Rwanda in '94 the minute it was obvious what was going to happen.

    Clinton was a pathetic coward to pull troops out and partially block the UN from going in.

    You do what is right first, worry about the rest later.

  8. #248
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    Re: If

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    That is complete garbage. The Fascists were hated by the socialists so much that they fought against them in the Spanish civil war.



    While our current violations of civil liberties are pretty terrible, they are not yet at the level of fascist counties of old. Our democratic structure remains intact and the people retain the power. The only problem today is overcoming apathy to actually change anything.



    The first step is to get rid of partisan nonsense. Your unsubtle attempts to blame "socialism" for the current situation is exactly the sort of reason we are in this situation. The fact is that the majority politicians from both parties have reached consensus in violating civil liberties. They maintain power because partisan divisiveness prevents any real opposition. Either a politician supports domestic spying on our citizens or they don't: doesn't matter what letter they have next to there name or what there ideology is. We have had 12 years of crap because people give their own group a pass for pissing on our rights and we aren't going to fix anything until that changes.
    Spot on! I can't "like" this posting enough!

    I'd just like to add... the socialists did not just fight the fascists in the Spanish civil war. In Germany, the socialists of the Social Democratic Party were even the fathers of the 1919 Constitution and the republic, the strongest defenders of the republican system against commies, monarchists and Nazis alike, and the only party voting against Hitler's Enabling Act in 1933.

    If there is one German party that can truly claim to have fought and died for freedom, republicanism and democracy, it's the (then) socialists of the SPD (they dropped Marxism in 1959 and became a mainstream center-left party later).
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  9. #249
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    Re: If

    Earlier I wrote,"They were also admired for their socialist thought in the 1930s by all of the usual suspects in England and the US. Their socialism led to national socialism by the mid-to-late 1930s."
    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    That is complete garbage. The Fascists were hated by the socialists so much that they fought against them in the Spanish civil war.
    Of course it isn't. The usual intellectual elites in England and the US fawned all over the German intellectuals who led socialist thought in the 1930s. Similar people with similar credentials fawned over the Soviets in the early days as well for the same reasons.

    Fascism and national socialism are the consequences of socialism. They were not enemies because they were different. They were enemies because they were competing for the same things. One could easily move from socialist to fascist to communist to Nazi as they are all the same thing in their essence.

    Obama's fascistic state has grown well beyond anything we have ever seen before here. And his socialist plans appear clear whether it is nationalizing the student loan programs, large chunks of the financial industries or creating a mess of medicine that will lead to a socialist, government run, single payer, tyrannical medical system. What do we do about it? The same kinds of people in both political parties who adored German socialists, and Russian socialists also adore Obama's fascists and socialists.

    So what do we do?

  10. #250
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    Re: If

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The first step is to get rid of partisan nonsense. Your unsubtle attempts to blame "socialism" for the current situation is exactly the sort of reason we are in this situation. The fact is that the majority politicians from both parties have reached consensus in violating civil liberties. They maintain power because partisan divisiveness prevents any real opposition. Either a politician supports domestic spying on our citizens or they don't: doesn't matter what letter they have next to there name or what there ideology is. We have had 12 years of crap because people give their own group a pass for pissing on our rights and we aren't going to fix anything until that changes.
    Is it partisan because Obama is leading us into tyranny as fast as he can and you like his political leanings?

    The establishment Republicans are nearly as bad as the Democrats. Both parties are relying upon growing government, centralizing power, and redistributing wealth under their control. We must destroy the socialists in both parties or liberty will be extinguished. My unsublte attempts are matched by your inability to see the situation as it is.

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