View Poll Results: Is abortion wrong?

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  • Yes

    27 40.30%
  • No

    37 55.22%
  • Unsure

    3 4.48%
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Thread: Is Abortion wrong?

  1. #171
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    It is a person. Liberals are always saying that the joined egg & sperm isn't life, but this is merely an excuse so that they can support abortion.
    I have no interest in defending anyone's position, other than my own. As an atheist, I believe that humans are entirely biological, therefore, I define a human being based on biological sufficient conditions. The biological sufficient conditions of a human being are human DNA, and a minimum of functional neural hardware. Virtually all of aborted embyos fail to meet these criteria, therefore, they should not be considered human.

    This really is the main crux of the issue, revolving around morality, and the definition of what constitutes a human being. The Pro-Choice side is more secular, defining human beings by biological criteria, the Pro-Life side defines human beings by a magical essence. Pro-Choicers are almost universally consequentialists, utilitarians, whereas Pro-Lifers tend to be deontologists, believing in an absolute morality derived from scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    Aren't liberals supposed to be the compassionate ones?
    Liberals aren't the only ones who are Pro-Choice. I'm not a Liberal, and I'm Pro-Choice.

    While we're talking about compassion, it's worth noting that Pro-Lifers are significantly more enthusiastic about war, capital punishment, and torture, than Pro-Choicers. Since you mentioned it.
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  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I have no interest in defending anyone's position, other than my own. As an atheist, I believe that humans are entirely biological, therefore, I define a human being based on biological sufficient conditions. The biological sufficient conditions of a human being are human DNA, and a minimum of functional neural hardware. Virtually all of aborted embyos fail to meet these criteria, therefore, they should not be considered human.

    This really is the main crux of the issue, revolving around morality, and the definition of what constitutes a human being. The Pro-Choice side is more secular, defining human beings by biological criteria, the Pro-Life side defines human beings by a magical essence. Pro-Choicers are almost universally consequentialists, utilitarians, whereas Pro-Lifers tend to be deontologists, believing in an absolute morality derived from scripture.



    Liberals aren't the only ones who are Pro-Choice. I'm not a Liberal, and I'm Pro-Choice.

    While we're talking about compassion, it's worth noting that Pro-Lifers are significantly more enthusiastic about war, capital punishment, and torture, than Pro-Choicers. Since you mentioned it.
    I find it interesting that since the left wants abortion, suddenly it's not a human.

    As for compassion, war may be unavoidable, capital punishment seeks justice against the guilty, and what you call torture, may be necessary in order to save lives. But you forget that those involved in war, and crime, are hardly innocent, as are the babies that the left refuse to acknowledge, and are all too willing to kill.
    We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, 1939

  3. #173
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    I find it interesting that since the left wants abortion, suddenly it's not a human.

    As for compassion, war may be unavoidable, capital punishment seeks justice against the guilty, and what you call torture, may be necessary in order to save lives. But you forget that those involved in war, and crime, are hardly innocent, as are the babies that the left refuse to acknowledge, and are all too willing to kill.
    Suddenly not human? It never was. Back in "the old days," even an infant wasn't a human. They didn't even get names until they had survived for a month or two after birth. It's even in the Bible, which anti-choicers love to use. There's no "suddenly," and our ancestors had good reasons for thinking that way - an infant is not self-aware, and is completely helpless and vulnerable to everything. Human infants are pre-mature compared to most mammals. We've actually gotten a lot kinder. Now infanticide is illegal - even late-term abortion is illegal, since the fetus can feel pain and live outside the womb.

    You have a justification for every type of violence except the violence against something that isn't even alive - a fetus.

    War is avoidable, and kills tons of civilians. Capital punishment isn't justice, it's just government-sanctioned murder, which in turn makes the society think murder is ok rather than detering it, AND they sometimes murder the wrong person. Torture is a lousy interrogation method in addition to its general cruelty.

    It's just amazing how you can look at unjust violence against genuine human beings, often innocent, and see no problem at all. In those cases, you think humans in their violence are infallible and an eye for an eye renders you just, not blind.

    But then you look at a sack of cells swirling around in a transparent membrance that's vaguely mammal-shaped and rail about how we're "killing babies." Oh brother.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-21-11 at 04:31 AM.

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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    I find it interesting that since the left wants abortion, suddenly it's not a human.
    The Left is not a unified front. Also, there are right-wing Pro-Choicers, however, they are a minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    As for compassion, war may be unavoidable,
    War is always avoidable. The common man has absolutely no stake in it, and never has. Wars are virtually, universally squabbles between elites, regardless who wins, the common man always loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    capital punishment seeks justice against the guilty,
    Capital punishment necessitates, by nature, a certain percentage of individuals will be wrongfully executed. In either case, I don't see anything just about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RamFel View Post
    and what you call torture, may be necessary in order to save lives. But you forget that those involved in war, and crime, are hardly innocent, as are the babies that the left refuse to acknowledge, and are all too willing to kill.
    This skirts the central issue; What are the sufficient conditions of a human being? You believe it's a magic essence. I call that nonsense.
    Last edited by NGNM85; 06-21-11 at 04:39 AM.
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by NGNM85 View Post
    I have no interest in defending anyone's position, other than my own. As an atheist, I believe that humans are entirely biological, therefore, I define a human being based on biological sufficient conditions. The biological sufficient conditions of a human being are human DNA, and a minimum of functional neural hardware. Virtually all of aborted embyos fail to meet these criteria, therefore, they should not be considered human.
    Why is function part of the formula? Its not, its a qualifier that you picked and nothing else.

    This really is the main crux of the issue, revolving around morality, and the definition of what constitutes a human being. The Pro-Choice side is more secular, defining human beings by biological criteria, the Pro-Life side defines human beings by a magical essence. Pro-Choicers are almost universally consequentialists, utilitarians, whereas Pro-Lifers tend to be deontologists, believing in an absolute morality derived from scripture.

    While we're talking about compassion, it's worth noting that Pro-Lifers are significantly more enthusiastic about war, capital punishment, and torture, than Pro-Choicers. Since you mentioned it.
    Generalizations are generally not helpful.

    War is always avoidable. The common man has absolutely no stake in it, and never has. Wars are virtually, universally squabbles between elites, regardless who wins, the common man always loses.
    Another generalization. War can be helpful to the common man, and have been a few times in history.
    Last edited by Henrin; 06-21-11 at 05:04 AM.

  6. #176
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why is function part of the formula? Its not, its a qualifier that you picked and nothing else.
    If you have a metal box with no harddrive or motherboard in it, is it a computer? If it has a cut-in-half, non-functional harddrive or motherboard in it, is a computer?

    No. It doesn't compute. It is not a computer. The metal box does not make it a computer.

    Obvious answer should be obvious...

  7. #177
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    If it would turn into a computer left undisturbed, in a few months, then yes - I have a computer. Call me crazy, but I count my chickens before they hatch, and I predict yields.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 06-21-11 at 06:07 AM.

  8. #178
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    If it would turn into a computer left undisturbed, in a few months, then yes - I have a computer. Call me crazy, but I count my chickens before they hatch, and I predict yields.
    Well, you're factually wrong.

    In keeping with the analogy, it wouldn't "turn into" anything. It is built by you. The fact that the build system for a human is not consciously performed doesn't make it not so. It is still an action performed by the builder. And the builder should decide what to do with it.

    P.S. You've also just admitted a fetus isn't a human.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 06-21-11 at 06:35 AM.

  9. #179
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Why is function part of the formula? Its not, its a qualifier that you picked and nothing else.
    No, it's essential, which is why it's a sufficient condition. If the neural hardware is completely nonfunctional then ...whatever it is, is dead. A minimal degree of neural function is a sufficient condition of being a human being, however it's just a bare minimum, compared to what would be required to qualify as a person, which is significantly greater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Generalizations are generally not helpful.
    He made a claim that Pro-Lifers are more compassionate, that opened the door. I'm fully within my rights. If you question the veracity of my statement, I can provide statistical evidence which bears out my assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Another generalization. War can be helpful to the common man, and have been a few times in history.
    Not in any way that couldn't be achieved by some other means. It simply (obviously) is not in the best interest of the working class to slaughter eachother, en masse. However, I don't want to go to far off on a tangent. That's a subject for another thread.
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    Re: Is Abortion wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    If you have a metal box with no harddrive or motherboard in it, is it a computer? If it has a cut-in-half, non-functional harddrive or motherboard in it, is a computer?

    No. It doesn't compute. It is not a computer. The metal box does not make it a computer.

    Obvious answer should be obvious...
    The computer argument fails. It needs you to go out and buy all those parts, put them all in, install a bunch of software to talk to it, and finally have a user to use all those parts as one. It just doesn't work without those parts, as the function of the parts are needed to be to move from being a collection of parts to a entire computer. A fetus is functioning at it current stage and is working towards another stage of function in the process. Its a totally different thing that you are trying to make the same, when it clearly is not.

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