View Poll Results: Which of these best describes you?

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  • Religious and Liberal

    3 6.98%
  • Nonreligious and Liberal

    7 16.28%
  • Religious and Conservative

    8 18.60%
  • Nonreligious and Conservative

    5 11.63%
  • Religious and Independent

    5 11.63%
  • Nonreligious and Indepedent

    10 23.26%
  • Other

    5 11.63%
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Thread: Religion in Politics

  1. #71
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    And those rights INCLUDE the right to practice ones religion and the right to vote. And if my religion has taught me that homosexuality is wrong and thus shouldn't be endorsed, then I am well within my rights to vote against the government allowing gay marriage and you'd be the one attempting to violate rights if you attempted to tell me I'm not allowed to use my religion as a basis for my rational on how I vote.
    Unless the effect of that vote is an active subversion of the principles of freedom and privacy that inform the operation of the republic.

    The basic logic in your post is that people have a right to vote against things on the terms that it offends their personal moral sensibilities. Since that generally isn't believed about EVERY behavior (such as owning guns, or belonging to a specific religion), a good rationale must be provided to add moral authority to the law necessary for the law to be maintained.

    There's never been a logically satisfying argument for why gay marriage should be banned. It "upsets traditional marriage" isn't a good argument because traditions enjoy no constitutional protections, particularly not above behaviors that actually seem consistent with the rights promised by the U.S. Constitution.

    The criticism is that religious people have a civic duty to use their votes responsibly and non-hypocritically, which doesn't consistently occur.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 06-17-11 at 06:52 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I believe in being nice to people and living in peace... as much as reasonably possible.
    You've never questioned my citizenship or my patriotism on the basis of my faith, or said that I should be subject to the laws of yours. Your notion of "reasonably possible" includes treating me as a neighbor, a fellow citizen, and an honorable person. There are many Christian Conservatives in this country-- prominent leaders of the movement-- for whom this is not the case. They have made it clear, time and time again, that I am not a "real" American and that there is no place for me in "their" America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I draw the line at being nice and living in peace with people who want to kill me or oppress me.
    That's exactly what I am saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Christian =/= Pacifist
    I don't expect Christians of any political stripe to be pacifists. But if prominent Conservative Christians want to treat me as the enemy, they shouldn't be surprised when I return the favor.
    Last edited by Korimyr the Rat; 06-17-11 at 07:01 PM.

  3. #73
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    You've never questioned my citizenship or my patriotism on the basis of my faith, or said that I should be subject to the laws of yours. Your notion of "reasonably possible" includes treating me as a neighbor, a fellow citizen, and an honorable person. Theirs does not.
    I would not dream of saying or doing otherwise. You follow a different path than mine, but you follow it with principle and honor, and it is a path that allows others to follow their own. I believe that faith is a choice, and would not dream of trying to change that choice into a "you must believe X or else".... to me, that would destroy the entire point of faith, which is central to my theology. The very notion of "forcing someone to be a Christian" is as alien to me as the idea of forcing someone to be Caucasian, and about as impossible.

    Law vs Morality is a slightly more complex question. On the one hand, I do not support theocracy or making into State law things that pertain only to Christianity, like going to church or refraining from unnecessary work on Sunday. On the other hand, law is supposed to be about justice, about what is right and what is wrong.... and I don't know how I can entirely seperate my religious beliefs about morality from what I think should be right or wrong in the law. I suppose the primary difference is that the law is (supposed) to be about HARM... one citizen (or corporation, etc) HARMS another, and what is to be done to set it right? Where there is no actual harm done, I tend to keep silent in most cases... the law is an expression of force, and one should always be judicious about the use or threat of force. But when we are talking about some kind of harm done, I cannot say that my beliefs will not color what I think is "right" or "wrong" about a given case.

    I could go through various specific issues and define whether they impinge upon "moral issues that need to be law", and "moral issues that don't need to be law" I suppose. That would take a while I suppose. However for the most part, if you're not doing harm in some way, I'm inclined to leave you alone and let you do your thing. I'm a Christian but I'm also a big believer in liberty and individual self-determination as a principle of government and law.







    I don't expect Christians of any political stripe to be pacifists. But if prominent Conservative Christians want to treat me as the enemy, they shouldn't be surprised when I return the favor.

    Understood. Just bear in mind, the ones that get all the media air-time are the ones that say the most controversial things and suffer boot-in-mouth disease a lot. The same bunch tends to throw words like "heathen" and "pagan" around very haphazardly, and don't seem to know much of anything about the actual practice of modern pagans. The ignorant often confuse it with Satanism and old Aleister Crowley.

    I'm reasonably confident there are more like me, than like the loudmouth foot-in-cheek crowd.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  4. #74
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin
    Law vs Morality is a slightly more complex question. On the one hand, I do not support theocracy or making into State law things that pertain only to Christianity, like going to church or refraining from unnecessary work on Sunday. On the other hand, law is supposed to be about justice, about what is right and what is wrong.... and I don't know how I can entirely seperate my religious beliefs about morality from what I think should be right or wrong in the law.
    I think the obvious answer to the highlighted area is: Be a living example of your faith and religion. As a Christian, there's a lot in the Bible that you can draw from to live you daily life that reflects good, clean, caring, loving ways to live. And "Love Thy Neighbor" is a good start.

    If people like what they see. They might be enticed to ask you what you do to have the kind of live that they are seeking.

    I guess this begs the question: Are all religions geared toward good will to all people, regardless of what other people's faith or beliefs are? Do all faiths teach tolerance and acceptance?
    Last edited by Removable Mind; 06-17-11 at 07:49 PM.

  5. #75
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Law vs Morality is a slightly more complex question. On the one hand, I do not support theocracy or making into State law things that pertain only to Christianity, like going to church or refraining from unnecessary work on Sunday. On the other hand, law is supposed to be about justice, about what is right and what is wrong.... and I don't know how I can entirely seperate my religious beliefs about morality from what I think should be right or wrong in the law.
    I don't begrudge people trying to work their religious morals into law one bit, as long as they stay away from religious doctrine. I'll either follow the law or I won't. But I love this country, and I'm not going to allow it to be taken from me without a fight. I won't be considered an alien in my own homeland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Just bear in mind, the ones that get all the media air-time are the ones that say the most controversial things and suffer boot-in-mouth disease a lot. The same bunch tends to throw words like "heathen" and "pagan" around very haphazardly, and don't seem to know much of anything about the actual practice of modern pagans. The ignorant often confuse it with Satanism and old Aleister Crowley.
    Group I'm talking about includes a sitting President within our lifetime. He was talking about atheists, not pagans, but I don't doubt for a second that I was meant to be included.

  6. #76
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    I don't begrudge people trying to work their religious morals into law one bit, as long as they stay away from religious doctrine. I'll either follow the law or I won't. But I love this country, and I'm not going to allow it to be taken from me without a fight. I won't be considered an alien in my own homeland.



    Group I'm talking about includes a sitting President within our lifetime. He was talking about atheists, not pagans, but I don't doubt for a second that I was meant to be included.


    I would never support or condone the gov't treating you like that just because you're a pagan. Realistically, I don't think you have a lot to worry about, any more than I need to worry about being jailed for being a Christian in America any time soon.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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