View Poll Results: Which of these best describes you?

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  • Religious and Liberal

    3 6.98%
  • Nonreligious and Liberal

    7 16.28%
  • Religious and Conservative

    8 18.60%
  • Nonreligious and Conservative

    5 11.63%
  • Religious and Independent

    5 11.63%
  • Nonreligious and Indepedent

    10 23.26%
  • Other

    5 11.63%
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Thread: Religion in Politics

  1. #61
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'm sick of seeing this word thrown out like it's a imminent threat to society. It has never been a threat since the founding of this nation. It's total bull****, and the only reason it's used is to marginalize religious people, and hopefully run them out of the country. The rabid atheists in this country feel so threatened by a group of people who believe in treating people nice and living in peace; it sick as hell is what it is.
    What a bull**** argument. Seriously, this is pretty ignorant of reality. Here in the US, atheists are the least electable group, behind Muslims. And we've seen the stupidity that circles those arguments. Atheists are not trying to "run the Christians out" or any other dumb ass, retarded, reality ignoring argument which could be made. The only thing they are looking for is to ensure that religious law isn't held over them. Which is why I said that it's ok so long as they are limited by the rights and liberties of the individual. Theocracy is not an ideal to be upheld nor proliferated. So long as people remain within the rights and liberties of the individual, they can do as they like. So please stop with stupid arguments which have nothing to do with what was written.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #62
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The belief in upholding and proliferating liberty and freedom is one of the fundamentals for our government, however. Not theocracy. My point was that your religious beliefs have limits when talking about the use of them through law. You cannot infringe upon the rights of others. It's really nothing more than that.
    And those rights INCLUDE the right to practice ones religion and the right to vote. And if my religion has taught me that homosexuality is wrong and thus shouldn't be endorsed, then I am well within my rights to vote against the government allowing gay marriage and you'd be the one attempting to violate rights if you attempted to tell me I'm not allowed to use my religion as a basis for my rational on how I vote.

    Yes, religious beliefs have limits. And we should never establish a theocracy or a state religion. However, you are infringing on other peoples rights when there is talk of attempting to prohibit or harass people into removing a part of what makes up their morals, ethics, views, and beliefs when they vote simply because you dislike it. If what they vote for is unconstitutional, then there are safe guards in this country for that. If what they're voting for is something you simply dislike and YOU think is unconstitutional...but has not been found to be such...then they are fully and completely within THEIR rights to have voted that way for whatever reason they choose.

    And religious people are just as within their rights and reasonable imho to not vote for a staunch athiest as an athiest would be not to vote for a staunch religious individual. I think both sides are rather idiotic if that is the basis for their vote either way rather than actual issues...and not just the issues they make up in their head through their own bigoted stereotypes.

  3. #63
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And those rights INCLUDE the right to practice ones religion and the right to vote. And if my religion has taught me that homosexuality is wrong and thus shouldn't be endorsed, then I am well within my rights to vote against the government allowing gay marriage and you'd be the one attempting to violate rights if you attempted to tell me I'm not allowed to use my religion as a basis for my rational on how I vote.
    I think you should be more than free to do so, and the courts are more than free to overrule you. That's one of the reasons we have them. If you wish to infringe upon the rights of others, we have a system in place to prevent that. You could say that your religion taught you that white folk are superior and slavery is the best system for non-whites because then white folk will take care of them. And you can vote that way. But we have a system in place which is supposed to prevent that from becoming law. You can hold whatever religious belief you want, but you cannot impress that believe upon me through law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, religious beliefs have limits. And we should never establish a theocracy or a state religion. However, you are infringing on other peoples rights when there is talk of attempting to prohibit or harass people into removing a part of what makes up their morals, ethics, views, and beliefs when they vote simply because you dislike it. If what they vote for is unconstitutional, then there are safe guards in this country for that. If what they're voting for is something you simply dislike and YOU think is unconstitutional...but has not been found to be such...then they are fully and completely within THEIR rights to have voted that way for whatever reason they choose.
    I'm not endorsing an infringement upon religion. I am saying that people who want to push their religious doctrine through law are wrong. While you are free to practice and preach your religion, your god ends at you. I am not beholden to the same rules because I do not hold your god. People may vote anyway they wish, but I will never endorse those who act against the rights and liberties of the individual. And as such, I will further support the Republic in the checks and balances it has against mob rule.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #64
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think you should be more than free to do so, and the courts are more than free to overrule you. That's one of the reasons we have them. If you wish to infringe upon the rights of others, we have a system in place to prevent that. You could say that your religion taught you that white folk are superior and slavery is the best system for non-whites because then white folk will take care of them. And you can vote that way. But we have a system in place which is supposed to prevent that from becoming law. You can hold whatever religious belief you want, but you cannot impress that believe upon me through law.
    Absolutely. And in your hypothetical, lets say the court didn't side with you but said it was constitutional. Then the voting would be entirely legitimate, regardless of whether or not they voted for it for a religious reason.

    I'm not endorsing an infringement upon religion. I am saying that people who want to push their religious doctrine through law are wrong. While you are free to practice and preach your religion, your god ends at you. I am not beholden to the same rules because I do not hold your god. People may vote anyway they wish, but I will never endorse those who act against the rights and liberties of the individual. And as such, I will further support the Republic in the checks and balances it has against mob rule.
    They are not wrong. They are more than free to push their religious doctrine through law so long as it does not 1) Infringe upon someones constitutional rights 2) Does not establish a state religion.

    Allowing Gay Marriage is not considered a constitutionally mandated thing at this moment. So people are absolutely allow, free, and constitutional in pushing hteir religious doctrine by voting against measures that would allow it to come into law. They are not infringing upon anyones constitutional rights (as its not been deemed a constitutional right to engage in such a marriage at this time in our country) and they are voting based on their religious beliefs.

    As long as their votes remain within the boundries set down by the constitution, they are absolutely free to push their codified religious beliefs through law. The constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion...it does no such thing in restricting what goes into the reasons behind and individuals votes, or that laws based on a persons religious beliefs can not be passed as long as there is a reasoning, however poor you may view it, other than "Because [god] wills it". If creating laws that coincide with religious doctrine but are constitutional in all other ways was unconstitutional, then we'd need to remove laws concerning murder, theft, and many others.

  5. #65
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely. And in your hypothetical, lets say the court didn't side with you but said it was constitutional. Then the voting would be entirely legitimate, regardless of whether or not they voted for it for a religious reason.
    Well specifically in the hypothetical of slavery, regardless of religious reason, the court ruling would be proper grounds for revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    They are not wrong. They are more than free to push their religious doctrine through law so long as it does not 1) Infringe upon someones constitutional rights 2) Does not establish a state religion.

    Allowing Gay Marriage is not considered a constitutionally mandated thing at this moment. So people are absolutely allow, free, and constitutional in pushing hteir religious doctrine by voting against measures that would allow it to come into law. They are not infringing upon anyones constitutional rights (as its not been deemed a constitutional right to engage in such a marriage at this time in our country) and they are voting based on their religious beliefs.

    As long as their votes remain within the boundries set down by the constitution, they are absolutely free to push their codified religious beliefs through law. The constitution forbids the establishment of a state religion...it does no such thing in restricting what goes into the reasons behind and individuals votes, or that laws based on a persons religious beliefs can not be passed as long as there is a reasoning, however poor you may view it, other than "Because [god] wills it". If creating laws that coincide with religious doctrine but are constitutional in all other ways was unconstitutional, then we'd need to remove laws concerning murder, theft, and many others.
    Well I'm not going to really turn this into a SSM argument, we have plenty of threads for that. So long as the votes are within the rights and liberties of the individual it can be considered just.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #66
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    There will always be people that vote along religious lines. That won't ever change. But churches should in no way be allowed to practice any sort of politics. No tax exempt entity that is labeled as religious should be allowed to be involved either.
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well specifically in the hypothetical of slavery, regardless of religious reason, the court ruling would be proper grounds for revolution.
    And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you there. However, that goes into an even farther off tangent.

    Well I'm not going to really turn this into a SSM argument, we have plenty of threads for that. So long as the votes are within the rights and liberties of the individual it can be considered just.
    This, I agree with. I don't have a strong care for WHY anyone votes the way they do as long as the laws remain within the realms of the constitution. I may at times think its stupid, like people who vote for the President that is cuter or vote for something because the name of the bill makes it seem like a good thing, but I would not in a second suggest that they shouldn't or can't vote based on that reason.

  8. #68
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This, I agree with. I don't have a strong care for WHY anyone votes the way they do as long as the laws remain within the realms of the constitution. I may at times think its stupid, like people who vote for the President that is cuter or vote for something because the name of the bill makes it seem like a good thing, but I would not in a second suggest that they shouldn't or can't vote based on that reason.
    So long as there is a system in place which can properly servo the will of the majority to protect the rights of the minority; neither would I.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #69
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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by katiegrrl0 View Post
    There will always be people that vote along religious lines. That won't ever change. But churches should in no way be allowed to practice any sort of politics. No tax exempt entity that is labeled as religious should be allowed to be involved either.
    I disagree with Churchs not being able to practice any sort of politics. I think a Church should not be publicly endorsing a particular party or a particular candidate, but I think it's unreasonable to perhaps suggest they not talk about political issues, as many political issues are not SINGULARLY political issues. IE...gay marriage, or abortion, or pornography, or gambling, or whatever...could all be a religious issue and is reasonable to be talked about. However, they shouldn't be going "So go out there and vote for Joe Soandso because he's pro-life". I would be behind removing tax exempt status for any church or religious group who was actively publicly supporting candidates or who were engaged in direct political activism (Such as sponsoring or organizing a group to go protest an candidate who was pro-choice).

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    Re: Religion in Politics

    Quote Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir View Post
    What color is the sky on your world? If they believed in treating people nice and living in peace, they'd be goddamned Quakers. Nobody's afraid of the Quakers taking over the country.
    I believe in being nice to people and living in peace... as much as reasonably possible. I draw the line at being nice and living in peace with people who want to kill me or oppress me. The problem with the Quakers is they'd find it very hard to survive anywhere but the US, or another country that was willing to protect people who won't fight even in self-defense.

    Christian =/= Pacifist

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