View Poll Results: Who was right: North or South?

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  • North

    39 58.21%
  • South

    21 31.34%
  • Neither

    7 10.45%
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Thread: The Civil War

  1. #261
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    We even got pretty close to intervening militarily on the confederate side but there was a huge movement against it as the public was more sympathetic (rightly or wrongly) to the union side. Possibly the first anti war movement in history.
    The only thing that slavery affected--directly--during the war, was England's entry, on the side of the Confederacy.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    By the summer of '63, Lee had lost the better part of his most talented generals: Jackson, Armistead, Garnet, Gregg; then Stuart in May of '64; not to mention the loss of hundreds of very talented regimental and brigade officers. At some point during Gettysburg, Lee suffered a stroke, or a heart attack. The talent he had left: Longstreet, Pickett, Ewell, D.H Hill, A.P. Hill et. al. were burnt out and were more interested in finding a way to end the war as painlessly as possible. All these things combined, were the reason that Grant's strategy was successful.

    At the end of the day, the talent that existed in the officer corps of all three military departments of the Confederacy, worked against them: the best leaders lead from the front. This leadership style cost the lives of many expert tactical leaders.
    There is alot of truth to this, however it doesn't really talk to my point.
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is alot of truth to this, however it doesn't really talk to my point.
    To follow up a little bit. I just do not see how the South could have prevailed from the get-go. Once blood is spilt in any quantity, who really cares why the first shot was fired. I am sure something constituted the first shot between the Hatfields and McCoys too, but who cared after that.

    Even now, how much credit does a world leader get for turning the other cheek ? It would so often be the wise thing to do, but politically can be as suicide. Look at Vietnam, and how we missed so many opportunities to GTFO, when we never should have GTFI to begin with.

    Perhaps, with Lee's first invasion of the North, had it not been for 3 lost cigars, maybe he creates enough havoc to where an accomodation prevails. As it was, instead we get the political environemt for the Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln gets his second term, and the killing continues.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Attrition is a sound strategy for those with the most men, especially in that era. It was the one strategy that Lee had no way to counter. Like it or not, Grant was the better strategist, since he devised a simple strategy that Lee could not counter. Lee could have put together a strategy earlier in the way that led to a South win, but never did.

    Again, Lee was an excellent tactician, but an average strategist.
    I think this was the post you wanted a response to. IMMHO, Lee did a marvelous job with what he had, up until Gettysburg, where he failed miserably in every way. A couple others here derided Longstreet, but Longstreet was brilliant. He begged Lee not to make a stand at Gettysburg. To move closer towards Baltimore and choose more favorable ground. He then was adamantly against Picketts Charge. Not that the South could have prevailed, but Gettysburg was all wrong, and Longstreet said so from the beginning.

    In strategy and tactics, Lee blew it there. In hindsight, he said so.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Forrest would have done terribly managing a large army. It would have been too unweildy for him. The size of the force that he had and the freedom he had to use it was perfect for his skillset. Under those conditions, he had no superior.
    Exactly, Forrest loved being in the field. He loved it precisely because he was able to do what he did best. He was masterful in many ways, damn near magical in some ways, however he would have hated commanding a large army and he wouldn't have been good at it. Had he commanded the Army of Northern Virginia Forrest would never have had the respect of his staff or his field officers.










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  6. #266
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Forrest would have done terribly managing a large army. It would have been too unweildy for him. The size of the force that he had and the freedom he had to use it was perfect for his skillset. Under those conditions, he had no superior.
    Impressive post, indeed.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When he wasn't, which occurred later in the war, this was when he was at his best. A mid-sized command of cavalry, with total freedom to do as he felt necessary.
    Actually, it was later in the war where he was screwed over the most, after Hood took command of the Army of Tennessee.

    It was in '62 and '63, when he had his own command, that he was able to show his natural military brilliance. Speicfically at battles like Parker's and Brice's Crossroads. Rommel studied Forrest's tactics at Parker's Crossroads, exstensively.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There is alot of truth to this, however it doesn't really talk to my point.
    Your point is somewhat erroneous, because had 1) the leadership that existed in the Army of Northern Virginia still been alive in mid '64 and into '65 and 2) Lee had been in the same state of mind that he was in before Gettysburg and 3) the moral of the gerneral officers that were left was still intact, Lee would have never went head to head with Grant and therefore Grant's strategy would have been a complete failure. Had Grant taken command of the Army of The Potomac at anytime prior to the spring of '63, he would have marched his Army to death, trying to even catch a glimpse of the ANV, much less get into a headlong fight with it.

  9. #269
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    By the summer of '63, Lee had lost the better part of his most talented generals: Jackson, Armistead, Garnet, Gregg; then Stuart in May of '64; not to mention the loss of hundreds of very talented regimental and brigade officers. At some point during Gettysburg, Lee suffered a stroke, or a heart attack. The talent he had left: Longstreet, Pickett, Ewell, D.H Hill, A.P. Hill et. al. were burnt out and were more interested in finding a way to end the war as painlessly as possible. All these things combined, were the reason that Grant's strategy was successful.

    At the end of the day, the talent that existed in the officer corps of all three military departments of the Confederacy, worked against them: the best leaders lead from the front. This leadership style cost the lives of many expert tactical leaders.
    This is actually pretty accurate. The bravery of the Confederate generals worked against them. Btw... you forgot Clerburne, another one of the South's very talented, offensively minded, "lead from the front" kind of generals. If you look at it, the North lost far fewer good strategists/tacticians. McPherson and to some degree Sedgwick are the only two that come to mind right off the top of my head.
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    To follow up a little bit. I just do not see how the South could have prevailed from the get-go. Once blood is spilt in any quantity, who really cares why the first shot was fired. I am sure something constituted the first shot between the Hatfields and McCoys too, but who cared after that.

    Even now, how much credit does a world leader get for turning the other cheek ? It would so often be the wise thing to do, but politically can be as suicide. Look at Vietnam, and how we missed so many opportunities to GTFO, when we never should have GTFI to begin with.

    Perhaps, with Lee's first invasion of the North, had it not been for 3 lost cigars, maybe he creates enough havoc to where an accomodation prevails. As it was, instead we get the political environemt for the Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln gets his second term, and the killing continues.
    A good example is the Gettysburg campaign. The idea was sound, but he got caught up at Gettysburg and forced to leave. If he could have maintained in the north for longer, continuing to sap Northern morale, those in the North pushing for peace may have gotten their way.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
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