View Poll Results: Who was right: North or South?

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  • North

    39 58.21%
  • South

    21 31.34%
  • Neither

    7 10.45%
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Thread: The Civil War

  1. #231
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Since those arsenals and installations were Federally owned on property that was part of the US, your position is irrelevant. Like I said earlier, if I stand on a piece of land and say, "this is now MY country and I own the land, completely", doesn't make it so.
    If you have a pre-existing agreement that you, as a state, retain the right to withdraw from the union, then yes it can 'make it so' given the right fact-dependent situations.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Your post is absurd! Lee's basic idea was about strength and hitting his opponent head on????? WTF? For the major part of the war Lee was vastly outnumbered and yet he won battle after battle. Lee was a master strategist. It is quite obvious that you haven't much of a grasp of the subject.
    Just to make the point: Lee was a very good tactician. Strategist was average. Planning a campaign is strategy, running a battle is tactics.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #233
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It doesn't matter if he was outnumbered or not or if won battles. My post was about common sense. He lacked it. Unless you can show me otherwise, I will stick to my conclusion made by looking at his battle history and actions taken on the field.
    I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Lee was a master strategist and not one who looked, like Grant, to win through attrition. Lee was aware that he couldn't win a battle like that. Lee's one, if not biggest mistake, during the entire war was Gettysburg. He was forced into fighting where he fought because Stuart was off raiding and pillaging, rather than being "the eyes of the army". Lee's advance force ran into Buford's cavalry, and didn't realize there was a larger Union force very close by, until it was too late. If Stuart had been around, no way would have the battle been fought where it was, if at all. Remember, also, Longstreet begged Lee to not order Picket's charge, as very defensively minded, Longstreet saw no possibility of success... and he was ultimately right.

    You sound more like a proponent of the kind of war Joe Johnston would nave fought. Johnston was a superb general, a master DEFENSIVE tactician. If he were in charge of the Army of North Virginia, the South would have lasted a bit longer, but would have had NO chance of winning. Lee was the South's best chance, as he was the most offensively minded of all of the South's lead generals.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you have a pre-existing agreement that you, as a state, retain the right to withdraw from the union, then yes it can 'make it so' given the right fact-dependent situations.
    Since secession was illegal, it can't make it so.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Lee was a master strategist and not one who looked, like Grant, to win through attrition. Lee was aware that he couldn't win a battle like that. Lee's one, if not biggest mistake, during the entire war was Gettysburg. He was forced into fighting where he fought because Stuart was off raiding and pillaging, rather than being "the eyes of the army". Lee's advance force ran into Buford's cavalry, and didn't realize there was a larger Union force very close by, until it was too late. If Stuart had been around, no way would have the battle been fought where it was, if at all. Remember, also, Longstreet begged Lee to not order Picket's charge, as very defensively minded, Longstreet saw no possibility of success... and he was ultimately right.

    You sound more like a proponent of the kind of war Joe Johnston would nave fought. Johnston was a superb general, a master DEFENSIVE tactician. If he were in charge of the Army of North Virginia, the South would have lasted a bit longer, but would have had NO chance of winning. Lee was the South's best chance, as he was the most offensively minded of all of the South's lead generals.
    Attrition is a sound strategy for those with the most men, especially in that era. It was the one strategy that Lee had no way to counter. Like it or not, Grant was the better strategist, since he devised a simple strategy that Lee could not counter. Lee could have put together a strategy earlier in the way that led to a South win, but never did.

    Again, Lee was an excellent tactician, but an average strategist.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #236
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Attrition is a sound strategy for those with the most men, especially in that era. It was the one strategy that Lee had no way to counter. Like it or not, Grant was the better strategist, since he devised a simple strategy that Lee could not counter. Lee could have put together a strategy earlier in the way that led to a South win, but never did.

    Again, Lee was an excellent tactician, but an average strategist.
    Attrition is certainly a strategy, but it doesn't really take a whole lot of creativity or planning. Grant said it clearly, "The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on." This is how he operated. His errors in the Wilderness Campaign extended the war a year. Sure, attrition is a strategy, but very limited in scope.

    I don't agree that Lee was an average strategist. His moves towards Antitiem and Gettsburg might be questionable, but they had larger, more far reaching purposes.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Attrition is certainly a strategy, but it doesn't really take a whole lot of creativity or planning. Grant said it clearly, "The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on." This is how he operated. His errors in the Wilderness Campaign extended the war a year. Sure, attrition is a strategy, but very limited in scope.

    I don't agree that Lee was an average strategist. His moves towards Antitiem and Gettsburg might be questionable, but they had larger, more far reaching purposes.
    Attrition seems like a simple thing, but it is the solution no one wants to use. In the end, the proof is in the pudding, in that Lee could not counter Grant strategically. Lee reminds me very much of Rommel, who was another excellent tactician who won battle after battle, but could not put it together to win the big campaigns.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  8. #238
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Attrition seems like a simple thing, but it is the solution no one wants to use. In the end, the proof is in the pudding, in that Lee could not counter Grant strategically. Lee reminds me very much of Rommel, who was another excellent tactician who won battle after battle, but could not put it together to win the big campaigns.
    You're talking about something that could not be strategized away. Lee simply didn't have the man power. This is not a knock on his strategic ability, but more on the availablity of resources. His strategy was superb enough to hang in there and often defeat forces quite a bit larger than his. But against a general who was using attrition? He had zero chance regardless of how good a strategist he was.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #239
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You're talking about something that could not be strategized away. Lee simply didn't have the man power. This is not a knock on his strategic ability, but more on the availablity of resources. His strategy was superb enough to hang in there and often defeat forces quite a bit larger than his. But against a general who was using attrition? He had zero chance regardless of how good a strategist he was.
    The thing is, earlier, he could have managed to win. Once Grant took over and had a free enough hand to do what had to be done, no, Lee had no chance. However, prior to this, Lee could have had his campaigning been more successful.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: The Civil War

    By the way, I am not trying to make light of Lee's accomplishments. He was a great general.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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