View Poll Results: Who was right: North or South?

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  • North

    39 58.21%
  • South

    21 31.34%
  • Neither

    7 10.45%
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Thread: The Civil War

  1. #211
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Fair enough, you're taking the view of a Southern gentlemen during the time period
    No, I'm looking at the issue through the eyes of your average Southern working stiff. The guy who didn't and never would own slaves and probably felt that slavery was wrong, but still felt a petriotic obligation to protect his homeland. Southerners knew--rightly it turned out--that an invasion by the Federals would put their homes and families in danger. There were thousands of atrocities committed by Federal troops, all over the South: rape, murder, burning of homes, looting. Crops desturction caused thousands of Southerners to starve to death.

    Always remember the words of Sherman:

    “I would not if I could abolish or modify slavery. . . . Negros in the great numbers that exist here must of necessity be slaves.”
    “The cause of the war is not alone in the nigger, but in the mercenary spirit of our countrymen.”
    You think Sherman was fighting to end slavery?

  2. #212
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No, I'm looking at the issue through the eyes of your average Southern working stiff. The guy who didn't and never would own slaves and probably felt that slavery was wrong, but still felt a petriotic obligation to protect his homeland. Southerners knew--rightly it turned out--that an invasion by the Federals would put their homes and families in danger. There were thousands of atrocities committed by Federal troops, all over the South: rape, murder, burning of homes, looting. Crops desturction caused thousands of Southerners to starve to death.

    Always remember the words of Sherman:

    You think Sherman was fighting to end slavery?
    Im not so naive to believe the North was fighting for the highest moral reason, nor that they were fighting to end slavery, I know most Northern stiffs as you say probably didn't give two ****s about slavery in the South and looking back at the time an individual was probably just as racist if not more than his Southern couisins. Heck they were so racist the biggest race roit occured not between blacks and whites but between the Irish and other whites, although there were race riots in the North as well between blacks and whites. All this I acknowledge, and frankly I can relate to an individual wanting to protect his family and land from war and avoid being swept up into its destruction and change to his lifestyle when all wants to do is farm his acres peacefully. I know that man and many many like him existed.

    Frankly there's no correct answer, both sides were wrong in their own ways which is what happens when you take a complex issue and break it into a binary system, but that's the nature of warfare and the mankind. The working stiff can't help be swept up in all the destruction which he would gladly sit out because he's part of that society. So yes I see the virtue in protecting one's homeland, but I also see the freedom of millions of men which was made possible through a denial of that man's peace, that freedom which was just the first step in a long long road to equality.

    In other words, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Yes innocent people suffered, thats what happens in war I obviously don't need to tell you that, don't take it as an insult.

  3. #213
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    The south seceded, the north had every right to attack the treasonous rebellion.
    No I don't think so. States could vote to enter the union and nothing says they couldn't vote to leave.

    I suspect if the founding fathers wanted to prohibit secession they would have, but they didn't because they themselves did the same thing. They didn't include a secession provision in the Constitution because they didn't want to openly endorse it, but I believe they left that window open.

    I don't believe the south should have seceeded though, as well as I don't believe the north should have invaded.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Im not so naive to believe the North was fighting for the highest moral reason, nor that they were fighting to end slavery, I know most Northern stiffs as you say probably didn't give two ****s about slavery in the South and looking back at the time an individual was probably just as racist if not more than his Southern couisins. Heck they were so racist the biggest race roit occured not between blacks and whites but between the Irish and other whites, although there were race riots in the North as well between blacks and whites. All this I acknowledge, and frankly I can relate to an individual wanting to protect his family and land from war and avoid being swept up into its destruction and change to his lifestyle when all wants to do is farm his acres peacefully. I know that man and many many like him existed.

    Frankly there's no correct answer, both sides were wrong in their own ways which is what happens when you take a complex issue and break it into a binary system, but that's the nature of warfare and the mankind. The working stiff can't help be swept up in all the destruction which he would gladly sit out because he's part of that society. So yes I see the virtue in protecting one's homeland, but I also see the freedom of millions of men which was made possible through a denial of that man's peace, that freedom which was just the first step in a long long road to equality.

    In other words, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Yes innocent people suffered, thats what happens in war I obviously don't need to tell you that, don't take it as an insult.
    I am of the inclination that even with generalities, you have to look at it in the smaller slices that escalated things. We would probably all agree that the overwhelming majority of participants were neither passionate about prolonging slavery, or ending it.

    However, secession, with slavery as the central issue, had been on the table for decades, and always the can was kicked down the road. Those that were the movers behind secession in SC anticipated a weaker response from the Federal Government. Just as Lincoln et al believed it would be easy to subdue the South. After those initial decisions, folks lined up behind where their heritage lay, and things kind of mushroomed, didn't they ? Lincoln may have been a brilliant politician, but he was a lousy President in the biggest decisions that he made, IMMHO.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 06-12-11 at 08:52 PM.

  5. #215
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Let's try an analogy:

    If Rick Perry turned Texas into his personal fiefdom and started gunning down his political opponents, would the president be justified in sending in the military to provide for the common defense and guarantee a republican form of government, as per the Constitution? I would hope that we would all agree that the answer is yes. What if Perry then responded by seceding from the United States (against the wishes of most of Texans)? Should the federal government just throw up its hands and bow to "states' rights"? Of course not.

    Is this hypothetical situation somehow different from the situation in the south during the Civil War?
    Could Perry secede or wouldn't they have to vote on it, either democratic or republican style?(as in form of voting, not party)

    On a different note with Texas-I believe they should have been a seperate country BEFORE the Civil War after the fight with Mexico, but it wouldn't make sense to leave at this point.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    No I don't think so. States could vote to enter the union and nothing says they couldn't vote to leave.
    i don't think anyone expected becoming a state would be a temporary or reversable thing. if it was to be reversable, the Constitution would have set terms and rules for how a state could secede.

    every state has rules for how towns, cities, and counties can secede...but the Federal govt. has no such rules on how parts of the nation, could leave. Im sure that was done on purpose.

  7. #217
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Umm, what? Are you seriously comparing owning human beings to owning a horse? Or are you saying that the southerners seceded to prevent the animal rights movement 150 years later?

    I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
    Most southerners and even northerners didn't think of blacks as human beings. But they were and should have been freed and they were.

    But I wouldn't demonize those that owned slaves, most where born into the culture of racism and/or slavery and were ignorant to morality.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

  8. #218
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    Re: The Civil War

    The North....
    Why?
    Because they were morally and factually right...


  9. #219
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Taking over the arsenals WAS an act of war and illegal. This and the attack on Fort Sumpter, attacking a Federal installation goes toward the presentation of the aggression of the south in this situation. Whether or not the North acted on the arsenal takeover is not relevant towards what they represented.
    There are two sides. You stated one.

    The other is that those asenals and installations were illegal occupations, also worthy of being called acts of war.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

  10. #220
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    In hindsight, the war achieved virtually nothing, while costing hundreds of thousands of lives and damage that lasted decades. The black man in the south was still persecuted mightily, and would have gotten true freedom just as quickly without the war as both technology and abolition continued their march forward.

    Had Lincoln had any concept of the cost in advance, he'd have never fought it. He said so.
    Sharecropping was virtual slavery, excellent point.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

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