View Poll Results: Who was right: North or South?

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  • North

    39 58.21%
  • South

    21 31.34%
  • Neither

    7 10.45%
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Thread: The Civil War

  1. #181
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Again implying the northerners actually cared more about it than the southerners. They didnt. Abolition as a legislative process was driven by industry and economics. Left to the citizens, it would have ended much quicker than it has taken.
    But when you look to The Missouri Compromise, The Kansas Nebraska Act. The stirrings of seccession in the 1820's and 30's ............. all go to Slavery. I am not implying anything.

    Abolition was clearly not "driven" by industry and economics !! Slavery was !! It is one thing to argue that much of the North had no need for slaves for economic reasons. However, that is not a motivation to abolish it !! The real early movers in Abolition were the Quakers. It was a fundamental rights issue with them. Not economics. Legislation was driven by votes and the will of the people. The passion in the North to abolish slavery was because they saw it as unjust.

  2. #182
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by ElCid View Post
    Who was right? Which side would you have fought for, knowing what you know today? Explain, please.
    The Confederacy, because the war was originally over trade tariffs, and the Union was on the big-government/high-regulation/high-tax side.

    Slavery was just a political tool, it's not what the war was about.

  3. #183
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    But when you look to The Missouri Compromise, The Kansas Nebraska Act. The stirrings of seccession in the 1820's and 30's ............. all go to Slavery. I am not implying anything.

    Abolition was clearly not "driven" by industry and economics !! Slavery was !! It is one thing to argue that much of the North had no need for slaves for economic reasons. However, that is not a motivation to abolish it !! The real early movers in Abolition were the Quakers. It was a fundamental rights issue with them. Not economics. Legislation was driven by votes and the will of the people. The passion in the North to abolish slavery was because they saw it as unjust.
    1820, 1830, and the climate was continuing to change. The country was less than 50 years old. Countries with centuries of slave owning history were making changes during that time period. Its foolish to think that the US would not have as well in a MUCH more healthy manner than what ended up happening.

  4. #184
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The Confederacy, because the war was originally over trade tariffs, and the Union was on the big-government/high-regulation/high-tax side.

    Slavery was just a political tool, it's not what the war was about.
    That is fundamentally incorrect. Tariffs had been low for 20 years prior to the Civil War. The most recent tariff of any significance was the Tariff of 1857, which had lowered tariff rates due to mid-decade tax surplusses. It was heavily supported by the South, which relied heavily on cotton export, and import of manufactured goods.

    The next tariff which raised rates again was the Morill Tariff. It passed and became law after secession, as Southern States opposed no longer had members in Congress to vote against it.

    Not going to say that tariff issues had nothing to do with Secession. Just very little. Meanwhile, contention over slavery had been building for 40 years.
    Last edited by Eighty Deuce; 06-12-11 at 03:03 PM. Reason: spelling

  5. #185
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    1820, 1830, and the climate was continuing to change. The country was less than 50 years old. Countries with centuries of slave owning history were making changes during that time period. Its foolish to think that the US would not have as well in a MUCH more healthy manner than what ended up happening.
    I never said the US would not have. I never even implied it. In fact, I have posts earlier here that say that the war was a huge waste, as slavery would have died on its own in due time. However, if anything, it reinforces that slavery was both the issue, and therefore, such a waste as the issue.

  6. #186
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Folks, I am near begging for a good discussion. That is not it.

    It was called "King Cotton", was it not ? How many Southerners owned cotton plantations ? Yet their entire economy was hugely inter-twined with cotton. When you look at those in power, who had the political influence, you need only follow the money. It led to King Cotton directly or indirectly an overwhelming amount of the time. King Cotton was slave-based. Hugely so after the invention of the cotton gin.

    How about a link and some good concurrent debate ?
    Actually, the South and in particular Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia were unjustly taxed to the point that the South was paying 75% of national federal budget and only about 10% of the money was returned to Southern states. The agricultural South was without question financing the industrial North. The North wanted Southern resources for pennies on the dollar.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  7. #187
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Actually, the South and in particular Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia were unjustly taxed to the point that the South was paying 75% of national federal budget and only about 10% of the money was returned to Southern states. The agricultural South was without question financing the industrial North. The North wanted Southern resources for pennies on the dollar.
    Tariffs were at record low levels in the 1850's.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    That is fundamentally incorrect. Tariffs had been low for 20 years prior to the Civil War. The most recent tariff of any significance was the Tariff of 1857, which had lowered tariff rates due to mid-decade tax surplusses. It was heavily supported by the South, which relied heavily on cotton export, and import of manufactured goods.

    The next tariff which raised rates again was the Morill Tariff. It passed and became law after secession, as Southern States opposed no longer had members in Congress to vote against it.

    Not going to say that tariff issues had nothing to do with Secession. Just very little. Meanwhile, contention over slavery had been building for 40 years.
    Because some anon on teh interwebz says so...yeah ok.

  9. #189
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Tariffs were at record low levels in the 1850's.
    Yeah, the South was paying 50% of the federal tax and getting back 10%.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



  10. #190
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Because some anon on teh interwebz says so...yeah ok.
    LOL .... which makes us different how ? C'mon, you can look it up. I have provided links earlier in the thread .. how 'bout choo

    Here is a paragraph of a review about a book that heavily examines what is known as "The Panic of 1857", and how it exacerbated relations between the North and South. The book examines all the tariff issues, and much more:

    The panic of 1857 initiated a general inquiry between free traders and protectionists into the deficiencies of American economic practices. A key aspect of this debate was the ultimate fate of the American worker, an issue that was given added emphasis by a series of labor demonstrations and strikes. In an attempt to maintain the material welfare of laborers, northerners advocated a program of high tariffs, free western lands, and education. But these proposals elicited the opposition of southerners, who believed that such policies would not serve the needs of the slaves system. Indeed, many people of the period saw the struggle between North and South as an economic one whose outcome would determine whether laborers would be free and well paid or degraded and poor.
    more here: The Panic of 1857 and the Coming of the Civil War by James L. Huston
    As I have noted from the beginning, the issue of slavery was a component of every other cause explained here.

    From one "anon" to another, the ball is in your court

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