View Poll Results: Who was right: North or South?

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  • North

    39 58.21%
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    21 31.34%
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Thread: The Civil War

  1. #171
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    Some interesting arguments here, but I must rebut. The fundamental issue of the war was slavery. If one wants to call it "state's rights", the primary right was the existence of slavery. The South saw a creep towards abolition, with Northern states imposing their will on Southern states via the Federal Government.

    The Emancipation Proclamation was more to rejuvenate the cause of the War, and not so much with an expectation of causing southern blacks to revolt. The victory at Antietam provided Lincoln with the foundation to make abolition the issue for the North, especially moving into the upcoming elections against the not-so-abolitionist Democrats. He also needed a Constitutional foundation, and if one notes, the slaves were only "emancipated" in the rebellion states. Not in such as Maryland, for instance. There was no legal basis upon which the Federal Government could free them in Northern States.

    Prior to the War, there had been serious considerations in the Federal Government to come up with a formula to essentially "buy out slavery", that is to pass laws that phased it out state-by-state and to compensate the owners monetarily. This is likely what would have happened had there been no war. In the end, the cost would have been exponentially less than the War.

    Lincoln and the rest of his generals thought that the War would be over in a month or two. It was a huge miscalculation. One for which Lincoln gets too much of a pass IMMHO.
    That's the same revisionist history that some of us have been arguing against. You average Southerner didn't care about slavery, one way, or another and sure as hell wasn't going to go die to preserve it.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    That's the same revisionist history that some of us have been arguing against. You average Southerner didn't care about slavery, one way, or another and sure as hell wasn't going to go die to preserve it.
    I am not sure what you mean. Slavery was at the heart of the issue. Primarily because of its economic value to King Cotton. Abolition was sweeping the North. Issues involving the admission of states in pairs so as to have one slave, one not-slave. State nullification of Federal Law, again primarily in how those laws would impact all things slavery, as that meant the economy.

    That the average Southernor did not so much care about slavery, as he owned none, may be true. However, he did care about being told how his state would behave by a Northern Government. And when the rebel-rousers in the South did secede, he was all for it, especially when Southern soil was invaded by a Northern Army.

    Here is a start for those interested: Top Five Causes of the Civil War

  3. #173
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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I am not sure what you mean. Slavery was at the heart of the issue. Primarily because of its economic value to King Cotton. Abolition was sweeping the North. Issues involving the admission of states in pairs so as to have one slave, one not-slave. State nullification of Federal Law, again primarily in how those laws would impact all things slavery, as that meant the economy.

    That the average Southernor did not so much care about slavery, as he owned none, may be true. However, he did care about being told how his state would behave by a Northern Government. And when the rebel-rousers in the South did secede, he was all for it, especially when Southern soil was invaded by a Northern Army.

    Here is a start for those interested: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
    Meh...anything after the first 2 reasons are simply revisionist history at work. The avergae northerner cared about as much about blacks and slavery as did the average southerner. When the slaves wanted to go north and settle into the northern cities...do you think they all said "hellz yeah...come on in...work with us...date our daughters..." No...they said "easy there nigger Jim...we meant you should be free down THERE...."

    It was all about econimcs. Slavery WOULD have ended. Society was evolving. The north could have worked much more efficiently to bring about social change than they did. It became SOLELY about sovereignty. Tragic.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Meh...anything after the first 2 reasons are simply revisionist history at work. The avergae northerner cared about as much about blacks and slavery as did the average southerner. When the slaves wanted to go north and settle into the northern cities...do you think they all said "hellz yeah...come on in...work with us...date our daughters..." No...they said "easy there nigger Jim...we meant you should be free down THERE...."

    It was all about econimcs. Slavery WOULD have ended. Society was evolving. The north could have worked much more efficiently to bring about social change than they did. It became SOLELY about sovereignty. Tragic.
    I have argued that the War was stupid. Avoidable. However, when you say "it was about economics", I am saying that the economics revolved around abolition. In particular, Lincoln was seen as one who advocated abolition, and that his election was a threat to continued movements against slavery, either by Amendment, or less obvious means, such as stacking the Congress against slavery by admitting more non-slave states.

    I have documented my position, and could continue to do so ad-nauseum. Can you document that the primary economic issues involved were not primarily slavery-associated ?

    FYI, the "average northerner" and the "average southerner" did not start the war. We are talking about who did, and why, are we not ? The powers in the South wanted to be free of any impositions from the North. Most of those impositions were inter-twined with slavery.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I have argued that the War was stupid. Avoidable. However, when you say "it was about economics", I am saying that the economics revolved around abolition. In particular, Lincoln was seen as one who advocated abolition, and that his election was a threat to continued movements against slavery, either by Amendment, or less obvious means, such as stacking the Congress against slavery by admitting more non-slave states.

    I have documented my position, and could continue to do so ad-nauseum. Can you document that the primary economic issues involved were not primarily slavery-associated ?

    FYI, the "average northerner" and the "average southerner" did not start the war. We are talking about who did, and why, are we not ? The powers in the South wanted to be free of any impositions from the North. Most of those impositions were inter-twined with slavery.
    I simply disagree. Anything beyond the northern industrialists being upset over the unfair economic advantage southern businessmen had by not having to pay employees is overstating the period historical reality. The southerners rebelled against being told what to do by the north. Technology was making plantation slaves irrelevant and if anything a financial burden. And horrifically, we had hundreds of thousands of people dead, maimed, families devastated...and it simply never had to happen.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 06-12-11 at 01:28 PM.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I simply disagree. Anything beyond the northern industrialists being upset over the unfair economic advantage southern businessmen had by not having to pay employees is overstating the period historical reality. The southerners rebelled against being told what to do by the north. Technology was making plantation slaves irrelevant and if anything a financial burden. And horrifically, we had hundreds of thousands of people dead, maimed, families devastated...and it simply never had to happen.
    I contend that any such "disadvantage" was minimal. The South had no industry that competed with the North. The North had no such cotton agriculture to compete with what had become near to a one-crop South ...... cotton.

    We would agree with the South not wanting to be told what to do by the North, but again, virtually all issues there of any import were significantly inter-twined with slavery. Where the passion for war existed, those issues revolved around slavery and abolition.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I am not sure what you mean. Slavery was at the heart of the issue. Primarily because of its economic value to King Cotton. Abolition was sweeping the North. Issues involving the admission of states in pairs so as to have one slave, one not-slave. State nullification of Federal Law, again primarily in how those laws would impact all things slavery, as that meant the economy.

    That the average Southernor did not so much care about slavery, as he owned none, may be true. However, he did care about being told how his state would behave by a Northern Government. And when the rebel-rousers in the South did secede, he was all for it, especially when Southern soil was invaded by a Northern Army.

    Here is a start for those interested: Top Five Causes of the Civil War
    No it wasn't. Less than 1% of Southerners owned slaves, yet over 90% of them voted for seccession. There's no way that it can be said that slavery was the primary issue of The Civil War.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighty Deuce View Post
    I contend that any such "disadvantage" was minimal. The South had no industry that competed with the North. The North had no such cotton agriculture to compete with what had become near to a one-crop South ...... cotton.

    We would agree with the South not wanting to be told what to do by the North, but again, virtually all issues there of any import were significantly inter-twined with slavery. Where the passion for war existed, those issues revolved around slavery and abolition.
    Again implying the northerners actually cared more about it than the southerners. They didnt. Abolition as a legislative process was driven by industry and economics. Left to the citizens, it would have ended much quicker than it has taken.

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    No it wasn't. Less than 1% of Southerners owned slaves, yet over 90% of them voted for seccession. There's no way that it can be said that slavery was the primary issue of The Civil War.
    Folks, I am near begging for a good discussion. That is not it.

    It was called "King Cotton", was it not ? How many Southerners owned cotton plantations ? Yet their entire economy was hugely inter-twined with cotton. When you look at those in power, who had the political influence, you need only follow the money. It led to King Cotton directly or indirectly an overwhelming amount of the time. King Cotton was slave-based. Hugely so after the invention of the cotton gin.

    How about a link and some good concurrent debate ?

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    Re: The Civil War

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Well while Grant was a horrible general aswell, Lee had no strategical sense, he just wouldn't gauge a situation and would run into situations attacking things head first. His basic idea in war was that it was about strength and that if you pitted his army against another he would win in a head on approach. The proper way to fight war is fought seeking the least path of resistance. My problem with Lee and the reason I listed Gettysburg as my example of his ignorance and cockiness is because of this basic failure on his part.
    Your post is absurd! Lee's basic idea was about strength and hitting his opponent head on????? WTF? For the major part of the war Lee was vastly outnumbered and yet he won battle after battle. Lee was a master strategist. It is quite obvious that you haven't much of a grasp of the subject.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



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