View Poll Results: Incandescent Light bulb ban.... do you care?

Voters
76. You may not vote on this poll
  • I care! The ban is foolish! I want my incandescent bulbs!

    20 26.32%
  • I like the ban! Bring on new lighting technology!

    20 26.32%
  • I dont care either way!

    13 17.11%
  • I like incandescent bulbs and fluorescent ones. But dont make a law about them!

    19 25.00%
  • OTHER / I dont know / Chimichanga

    4 5.26%
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Thread: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

  1. #361
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    The trouble of course, is that these better bulbs are so expensive...
    So, naturally the people will buy the cheapest, as we have for the past 6,000 years.
    I do not think that they are convinced that the LED is more economical in the long run. Of this, I am not convinced of either...
    Our government tells us that the old bulbs waste too much energy...but far too many do not trust "our government".
    Why ?
    Advertising... the biggest lie in America...who will believe anything that they say ?
    So we badly need reform here...truth in advertising...real reform...
    Digital televisions were very expensive. Now prices have come down and nobody buys anything else.

    I understand your point but if they are indeed better, it will be proven out and people will buy them. Part of the problem is with people like myself. I would continue to buy the ineffiecient made in the USA bulb over the more eficient and pricey made in China bulb.

    It's funny how some bitch and belly ache about the big bad corporations sending jobs overseas until they no longer have a problem with it.

  2. #362
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Did they happen to crash into you?
    No, thanks to our state vehicle inspection program.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #363
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Lets be clear they have no obligation to protect your health or the environment in which you live. They only have the obligation to protect your rights and preserve your liberty. Big difference my boy.
    Try reading the Preamble to the Constitution sometime, and I am not your boy, sonny!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Seriously? Then what exactly is the point of this argument, anyway?
    People don't like saving money??? Beats the hell out of me.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Where have I been? Well, I was born in Chicago, but moved to Missouri when I was... Oh wait, you were just asking a silly question. Sorry, my bad!

    I am all for manufacturers improving their products. I have said that throughout these debates. What I am against is oppressive, authoritarian tyranny.
    You obviously have not kept up with the facts presented in the thread because I have already posted documentation of the fact that the light bulb industry helped craft this federal legislation because they did want to have to deal with conflicting state regulations for energy efficiency.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #366
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    So explain to us what prevents improvement.
    Iíll explain again using a different example, air conditioners in Arizona. Actually heat pumps. To build a more efficient heat pump rather than the lowest cost heat pump there are simple things you can do to start. You can over size many of the passive components, e.g. heat exchangers, filter dryers, mode valves but keep the same compressor, blower and fan and you can some additional insulation. The next step takes fan and blower motors that have run capacitors, usually base models have run/start capacitors type motors in the compressor. Fan blade and blower design can be changed to be more efficient but the process for manufacturing these is more expensive. But not many individuals are interested in these improvements if they are replacing a unit, cost drives them. The cost of the unit is buried in the quote the home owner gets from the firm that will replace the unit. A slightly lower cost in the unit improves the profit dramatically for the installing company. The installing companies are not expert in the engineering of the units and they generally donít know about efficiency. The builder of new homes knows that the sale of the home will not be dependent on the efficiency of the heat pump. So the builder is motivated to buy the lowest cost heat pump. When the effective date of the required federal standard was close at hand several builders in the Phoenix area purchased hundreds of lower cost earlier units. At the volumes Goettl would manufacture higher efficiency units w/o the fed requirement they would be prohibitively expensive and hard to sell and would have payback times that made no sense, so they did not make them. With the fed requirement the cost comes down dramatically. So when I replaced my heat pump I could get what I wanted, Iím an engineer, but I didnít have to ask for it. Without the fed rules, I couldnít get what I wanted because it wouldnít have been made.

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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Well, I am out of here folks. I am satisfied the facts have been presented. You can buy incandescent light bulbs that meet the new standards that provide the same light, have the same shape, and can be purchased in a two-pack at Home Depot for $3. And they will save you money over the life of the bulb.

    Anyone that thinks saving money is worth revolting over, have at it!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #368
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    I’ll explain again using a different example, air conditioners in Arizona. Actually heat pumps. To build a more efficient heat pump rather than the lowest cost heat pump there are simple things you can do to start. You can over size many of the passive components, e.g. heat exchangers, filter dryers, mode valves but keep the same compressor, blower and fan and you can some additional insulation. The next step takes fan and blower motors that have run capacitors, usually base models have run/start capacitors type motors in the compressor. Fan blade and blower design can be changed to be more efficient but the process for manufacturing these is more expensive. But not many individuals are interested in these improvements if they are replacing a unit, cost drives them. The cost of the unit is buried in the quote the home owner gets from the firm that will replace the unit. A slightly lower cost in the unit improves the profit dramatically for the installing company. The installing companies are not expert in the engineering of the units and they generally don’t know about efficiency. The builder of new homes knows that the sale of the home will not be dependent on the efficiency of the heat pump. So the builder is motivated to buy the lowest cost heat pump. When the effective date of the required federal standard was close at hand several builders in the Phoenix area purchased hundreds of lower cost earlier units. At the volumes Goettl would manufacture higher efficiency units w/o the fed requirement they would be prohibitively expensive and hard to sell and would have payback times that made no sense, so they did not make them. With the fed requirement the cost comes down dramatically. So when I replaced my heat pump I could get what I wanted, I’m an engineer, but I didn’t have to ask for it. Without the fed rules, I couldn’t get what I wanted because it wouldn’t have been made.
    Todays units are far and away more efficient than units of yesterday. It's how you gain the advantage over the competition.

    Today's televisions use far less energy than televisions of years ago. Nobody forced that. These television were also prohibitively expensive when they first came out.

  9. #369
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You obviously have not kept up with the facts presented in the thread because I have already posted documentation of the fact that the light bulb industry helped craft this federal legislation because they did want to have to deal with conflicting state regulations for energy efficiency.
    This does not contradict my argument and it does not show that I have not kept up with your postings. I said that I wanted manufacturers to improve their products and sell them to the people. I have never said that having an oppressive law was a good thing even if the manufacturers were pleased with the law. A bad law is a bad law.
    Last edited by LesGovt; 08-15-11 at 09:28 PM.

  10. #370
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    Re: Incandecent Bulbs Made Illegal

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    ROFL!!! I have never said that the elite or the intelligent are stupid. People from your side of the argument have literally said that the masses, which include intelligent people, are stupid. Nice try to flip the argument, but you have erred.
    Stop putting words in my mouth. Learn to speak truthfully, and then I might start taking you more seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Thank you for making my argument that we should ban air conditioners and autos rather than lightbulbs. Lightbulbs use very little energy. The manual typewriter uses no electricity. The electric one does. Using the manual saves 100% of the energy used by the electric. If it doesn't save enough, it doesn't matter because real energy savings could be achieved, but your side does not advocate saving energy from the sources that use the most energy.
    I don't even know what you're trying to say here, because I can't see the logic through all this petty sniping. Are you saying that electric typewriters, all 100 of them or so still in existence, consume the same number of watts on average that all the lightbulbs in all the countries in the WORLD do? Dude if you'd just cut the snippy comments, then even if I don't agree with one word of what you say, at least I might be able to understand you a little better.

    I don't believe you understand the conservative argument. We favor research and development of all types of energy including wind, solar, battery, fossil fuels, nuclear, and hydro. If someone could make a car that gets 1,000 mpg gallon, please make it. Some people will buy it. If someone could make a lightbulb that could last 40 years, please make it. If someone could make a truck that can carry 50,000 lbs and get 100 mpg, please make it. Conservatives would be delighted if each of these were achieved.
    I seriously question the truth value of these statements. You ever seen "Who Killed the Electric Car"? Do you not realize that Big Coal and Big Oil have a vested interest AGAINST cleaner energy? I am aware, however, of the unfortunate dilemma that dirty power tends to be cheap. That's a big part of the problem here. It's an even bigger problem when Big Oil companies spend only a tiny portion of their research and development on clean energy, relying instead on old, dirty technology.

    Where we differ is that we do not believe that tyranny is the American Spirit. We do not believe that tyranny is patriotic. I agree that America can do anything better and I don't wonder about that at all. I have faith in the "stupid" masses as well as the elites, at least, those who do not believe in tyranny.
    You are in absolutely no position to lecture me on this matter. The silent majority--get this--actually WANTS clean energy. They WANT society to press harder for developing clean, cost-effective sources of power. Do you? Or are you perfectly okay with Big Coal and Big Oil continuing to trash our seas and our skies? That's the status quo, Les. That's what we have right now. And you would fight to defend that? You think it's patriotic to continue polluting with no end in sight? Puh-lease! A fundamental part of the American Spirit is innovation. Innovation is what got us steam power in the first place, and weeded our dependence off of slavery. Innovation is what sent us to outer space. Innovation is what has given us cures to diseases that would have been an automatic death sentence just decades ago. Innovation is what will plummet the cost of clean energy far enough to put Big Coal and Big Oil out of business. Innovation is what will sharply decrease the grossly underrated health care costs due to dirty energy. THAT, sir, is what I think of when I think of patriotism. I could not be prouder of a nation that has come so far, primarily due to its innovation.

    But I worry deeply that we have lost that focus. I worry that innovation nowadays is tarred and feathered under the guises of "big government." Had the Tea Party the influence back in the 1960s that it does now, I seriously wonder whether our spaceships would have even gotten off the ground. The USSR would have kicked our tails and made us look silly. And guess what? Quietly, that exact same thing is going on. Several other nations are leading the charge in clean energy--Denmark, Germany, Spain, China, and even India. Meanwhile, we sit on our butts and whine about some freakin' lightbulb and how it's about to become too freakin' efficient. Jesus, what have we come to? It is a BAD thing that public policy dictates that an appliance be efficient?? What the hell??

    I really want to understand conservatives' position on the matter. I hear you when you say that the cost per megawatt-hour really should be the primary determining factor in terms of what energy sources we use. Disagree partially I may, but I do hear you. All I'm asking for is the same in return.

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