View Poll Results: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal' options

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  • Yes

    16 43.24%
  • No

    19 51.35%
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    2 5.41%
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Thread: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

  1. #101
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Libertarian is a party, and as such there are conservative libertarians ( who emphasis personal responsibility) and liberal libertarians (who want all drugs legalized).
    Capital L Libertarian is a party, yes.

    Small L libertarian is a values set. Fiscally conservative, socially "live and let live," and foreign policy mindful of George Washington's admonishment to avoid foreign entanglements.

  2. #102
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    While we're at it, can somebody tell me WTF a "neocon" is?

    Or is there a thread on that?

    I first heard the term in the 80s when Pat Buchanan described Dems who sided with Reagan on the Cold War as such, but since the Bush 43 years, I hear it as a term of derision from libs talking about mod repubs.

    Since they're libs, I tend to assume they don't know what they're saying, . . . but what exactly do they mean?

  3. #103
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    Capital L Libertarian is a party, yes.

    Small L libertarian is a values set. Fiscally conservative, socially "live and let live," and foreign policy mindful of George Washington's admonishment to avoid foreign entanglements.
    The whole big-letter/little-letter gadget is artificial and is generally ignored even more then your lean anyway.

    Generaly, the X axis is Left/Right, the Y axis is Con/Lib, and the Z axis is overall importance.

    "Value set" is defined by these 3, it is not it's own attribute.
    Last edited by Jerry; 06-11-11 at 01:46 AM.

  4. #104
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    While we're at it, can somebody tell me WTF a "neocon" is?

    Or is there a thread on that?

    I first heard the term in the 80s when Pat Buchanan described Dems who sided with Reagan on the Cold War as such, but since the Bush 43 years, I hear it as a term of derision from libs talking about mod repubs.

    Since they're libs, I tend to assume they don't know what they're saying, . . . but what exactly do they mean?
    It's one of those cute little nick-names liberals made up to troll conservatives, which doesn't actually mean anything, thus it's utility as a trolling tool. It's a pulp label.

  5. #105
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Actually Neocon means something.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  6. #106
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Actually Neocon means something.
    That's the beauty of pulp-labels: they mean whatever you want them to mean, so yes in a literal sense they do mean something, they just don't have a fixed definition.

    The whole idea of sub-types of conservative is rather silly anyway. That's like going out of your way to say what kind of American you are, when the question was simply what country are you a citizen of.
    Last edited by Jerry; 06-11-11 at 02:04 AM.

  7. #107
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's the beauty of pulp-labels: they mean whatever you want them to mean, so yes in a literal sense they do mean something, they just don't have a fixed definition.
    No. There's actually such a thing as a neocon, and it has a very specific definition. Ask Irving Kristol.

    The whole idea of sub-types of conservative is rather silly anyway. That's like going out of your way to say what kind of American you are, when the question was simply what country are you a citizen of.
    No, it's really not. There exist different strains of conservatism with varying beliefs. This really isn't a debatable point.
    Last edited by StillBallin75; 06-11-11 at 02:07 AM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

  8. #108
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    No. There's actually such a thing as a neocon. Ask Irving Kristol.
    Right I'll just give him a call real quick....

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    No, it's really not. There exist different strains of conservatism with varying beliefs. This really isn't a debatable point.
    I know there are, but what I said was it's a rather silly thing to feel the need to point out. It doesn't matter to most people on this forum because most of us don't even notice your lean before reading your argument. I think you're one of those who is trying to put to fine a point of this. It's just a lean, a vague, general idea, not your entire world-view summerised in a word.

  9. #109
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The whole big-letter/little-letter gadget is artificial and is generally ignored even more then your lean anyway.Generaly, the X axis is Left/Right, the Y axis is Con/Lib, and the Z axis is overall importance.

    "Value set" is defined by these 3, it is not it's own attribute.
    Maybe so, by those who have no point of reference for the term to begin with.

    I think of the political leans as more of a quadrant than a strait line, with one axis running from lib to con, and the other from economics to social policy. Thus

    economically conservative/socially liberal = libertarian
    economically liberal/socially conservative = populist

    Then libs and cons falling into their respective spots.

    Not exact no, but a starting point, which is pretty much all the "lean" question is about.
    Last edited by LuckyDan; 06-11-11 at 02:35 AM.

  10. #110
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    Re: Should DP add 'independent conservative' and 'independent liberal'?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    Maybe some people are just putting too fine a point on it. The question is "lean?" Not "define your philosophy in one word."
    That still, essentially, leaves me at 'Other'. 'Libertarian', in the literal sense, would be correct, but it's virtually never used that way in the United States, where it means almost the exact opposite.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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