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Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

Is Sarah Palin's use of the flag breaking the law?

  • YES! Fine her! Throw her in jail!

    Votes: 3 6.5%

  • Maybe...it seems disrespectful.

    Votes: 2 4.3%

  • Really? This is what we're talking about?

    Votes: 41 89.1%
  • Total voters
    46
Whovian said:
Big difference. Something can 'represent' the flag, without being 'mistaken for' the flag.
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I see your point. You're making a good argument that the American Legion mural is also a violation of Flag Code.

Did you switch sides in this debate or something?
 
Whovian said:
large_mural01mlive.jpg
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Is it just me, or does it look like the eagle's about to pluck the guy off the cherry-picker?
 
Guy Incognito said:
Yes! The Pledge is part of Flag Code, Title 4 USC Chapter 1 Section 4.
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Which isn't enforcible, valid law. It's a guide. Children are allowed to remove the terms "under god" from the pledge. Some entire school districts have done it. Why can't I modify it to my belief system, so long as I'm still pledging allegience to my country?
 
tessaesque said:
Why? I'm pledging my loyalty to the country, above all else. There is absolutely ntohing wrong with that.
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That, and you were thinking. Not just parroting.
 
tessaesque said:
Which isn't enforcible, valid law.
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"Enforceable law" and "valid law" are not synonyms. Flag Code is not enforceable, but it is valid law.

tessaesque said:
It's a guide.
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No, it's law.

tessaesque said:
Children are allowed to remove the terms "under god" from the pledge.
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No, they aren't.

tessaesque said:
Some entire school districts have done it.
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If they have then they were wrong to do so.

tessaesque said:
Why can't I modify it to my belief system, so long as I'm still pledging allegience to my country?
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You can modify the Pledge, you just have to do it by act of Congress.

Look, I don't think the words "under God" belong in the Pledge either, I think it violates the first amendment. But it doesn't matter what I think, since I don't get to decide those things unilaterally.
 
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Actually, Guy; what is anybody going to do with a child who picks and chooses how they say the pledge. Seriously. I'd be grateful they're thinking, myself.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Yes! The Pledge is part of Flag Code, Title 4 USC Chapter 1 Section 4.
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tessaesque said:
Which isn't enforceable, valid law. It's a guide. Children are allowed to remove the terms "under god" from the pledge. Some entire school districts have done it. Why can't I modify it to my belief system, so long as I'm still pledging allegiance to my country?
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Technical;ly Guy, it's part of US Code, not part of Flag Code. Title 4 USC Chapter 1 is 'commonly referred to as 'flag Code', but it's officially Title 4 USC Chapter 1... of which Chapter 4 contains the following...
The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”, should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute.
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nothing in there about removing or not removing parts, requiring it to be said, etc... just 'how' it is to be delivered when it is actually said.
 
Guy Incognito said:
You can modify the Pledge, you just have to do it by act of Congress.

Look, I don't think the words "under God" belong in the Pledge either, I think it violates the first amendment. But it doesn't matter what I think, since I don't get to decide those things unilaterally.
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if you wish to modify it officially - certainly.

however, children can say whatever combination of phrases that are in the Pledge that they please; and to enforce otherwise is a violation of the First Amendment.
 
anywho. wonder if those three people will be willing to support Impeachment Trials for President Obama given his "breaking of the law and need to be thrown in jail"

After all, here he is using the flag in the first ad of his 2012 campaign; at the 5 second mark, the 25 second mark, and the 50 second mark.




Conservatives: anyone else find it funny that, when addressing an MSNBC audience, Bashir felt that he had to remind them that the Stars and Stripes is the American flag? :mrgreen: :lol:
 
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cpwill said:
if you wish to modify it officially - certainly.

however, children can say whatever combination of phrases that are in the Pledge that they please; and to enforce otherwise is a violation of the First Amendment.
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Correction: Children can say whatever collection of words they want and call it the "Pledge" but that doesn't make it the Pledge. The actual Pledge is contained in US Code.

Again, just because it is unenforceable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What a tragic state of affairs that so many people find it difficult to give proper respect to the Flag and all that it represents in the absence of punishment.

What ever happened to doing the right thing for its own sake?
 
Whovian said:
Technical;ly Guy, it's part of US Code, not part of Flag Code. Title 4 USC Chapter 1 is 'commonly referred to as 'flag Code', but it's officially Title 4 USC Chapter 1... of which Chapter 4 contains the following...
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Well, technically Title 4 USC Chapter 1 et seq. is the Flag code, which I believe includes the Pledge.

Whovian said:
nothing in there about removing or not removing parts, requiring it to be said, etc... just 'how' it is to be delivered when it is actually said.
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You're right, there is nothing in there that authorizes anyone to change a single word of the Pledge. The only way to do so is by act of Congress.
 
BDBoop said:
Actually, Guy; what is anybody going to do with a child who picks and chooses how they say the pledge. Seriously. I'd be grateful they're thinking, myself.
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If it was my kid, the irreverence of it would be very concerning to me.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Well, technically Title 4 USC Chapter 1 et seq. is the Flag code, which I believe includes the Pledge.



You're right, there is nothing in there that authorizes anyone to change a single word of the Pledge. The only way to do so is by act of Congress.
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There is nothing in there that prevents it either, and that is the point.

There is nothing in there that requires it ever even be said.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Well, technically Title 4 USC Chapter 1 et seq. is the Flag code, which I believe includes the Pledge.
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incorrect... it is US Code. Specifically, TITLE 4—FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES, and the chapter is 'Chapter 1-The Flag'. No where in US Code is any of it referred to as 'Flag Code'.
 
Whovian said:
incorrect... it is US Code. Specifically, TITLE 4—FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES, and the chapter is 'Chapter 1-The Flag'. No where in US Code is any of it referred to as 'Flag Code'.
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Flag Code is not an official name for it, but when people talk about US Flag code, this is what they are referring to. I never said that "Flag Code" is the official name. What's your point with all this?
 
Whovian said:
There is nothing in there that prevents it either, and that is the point.
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Yes, there is something that prevents you from making up your own Pledge. It's the fact that the real Pledge is promulgated by Congress. You can make up whatever gibberish you want and call it the Pledge, but that don't make it so.

Whovian said:
There is nothing in there that requires it ever even be said.
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Irrelevant. If the Pledge is said, then it must be said in accordance with the statute. Otherwise it is simply not the Pledge, it is merely a collection of words.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
Yes, there is something that prevents you from making up your own Pledge. It's the fact that the real Pledge is promulgated by Congress.



Irrelevant. If the Pledge is said, then it must be said in accordance with the statute. Otherwise it is simply not the Pledge, it is merely a collection of words.
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what is the penalty for misspeaking the Pledge?
 
Whovian said:
what is the penalty for misspeaking the Pledge?
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There is no criminal penalty. The only penalty is that when you misspeak the Pledge you have not actually said the authentic Pledge.

I consider that to be a serious penalty.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Flag Code is not an official name for it, but when people talk about US Flag code, this is what they are referring to. I never said that "Flag Code" is the official name. What's your point with all this?
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Guy Incognito said:
Yes! The Pledge is part of Flag Code, Title 4 USC Chapter 1 Section 4.
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You capitalized Flag & Code, implying officialism.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Incorrect. My time is valuable, and I am not going to relieve you of your burden in the debate. You should support your own arguments and not whine about having to do so. At least you've done the former:roll:

Now, my answers? The first three murals clearly violate flag code, the last picture clearly does not.
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The last four hours or so would seem to indicate not so much. :lamo

.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Incorrect. My time is valuable, and I am not going to relieve you of your burden in the debate. You should support your own arguments and not whine about having to do so. At least you've done the former

Now, my answers? The first three murals clearly violate flag code, the last picture clearly does not.
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TOJ said:
The last four hours or so would seem to indicate not so much. :lamo

.
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snap.jpg
 
Whovian said:
You capitalized Flag & Code, implying officialism.
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The word Code ought to be capitalized because it refers to US Code. The word Flag I capitalize out of respect, like a proper name, and to distinguish the Flag from flags generally.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Correction: Children can say whatever collection of words they want and call it the "Pledge" but that doesn't make it the Pledge. The actual Pledge is contained in US Code.

Again, just because it is unenforceable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What a tragic state of affairs that so many people find it difficult to give proper respect to the Flag and all that it represents in the absence of punishment.

What ever happened to doing the right thing for its own sake?
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Part of the pledge is the "under God" part, which to me is hollow, and insincere, why would I be dishonest and pledge to a country under something I do not even believe to exist. If I am going to say the pledge with sincerity, then I should be honest about it, and not make empty pledges that are meaningless to me. This also extends to the flag portion of the pledge, to me it is just a symbolic worship of the flag. I do not do symbolic worship or adoration, it makes no sense to me what is important is that you honor the thing itself not some proxy. To pledge allegiance to the flag would be vacuous and meaningless I have no allegiance to a symbolic piece of cloth with colors on it. On the other hand pledging allegiance to the country itself (as opposed to a symbol) is not vacuous and meaningless. I understand that others put a great deal of value into the symbolism of the flag, that is fine for them and for you. For me it makes no sense, it seems primitive and superstitious to me. Making such a pledge would be insincere. Just to make sure the point is driven home again, it is not just the flag symbolism, but symbolism itself, I just do not get some derivative sense of worth for an object used symbolically and as such do not see any point to feign otherwise - that IMO would be the greater offense.
 
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