View Poll Results: Is Sarah Palin's use of the flag breaking the law?

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  • YES! Fine her! Throw her in jail!

    4 7.14%
  • Maybe...it seems disrespectful.

    3 5.36%
  • Really? This is what we're talking about?

    49 87.50%
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Thread: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

  1. #261
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Apparently you are trying to attribute something to me that is not the case, symbolism, and now by extension as the conversation goes on ritual really seem to be primitive throwback behaviors that are borderline superstitious to me. They seriously make little sense to me. I also feel that they dilute that which they are representing
    I think what you don't like is the word ritual. You are not averse to oaths and pledges (which are rituals), and you take them seriously to the point that you will not dishonestly take an oath. Why? Is this not because you value the ritual of oath taking?

    If the Pledge did not contain the words "under God," presumably you would say it, right? That's a ritual you would value, right?

    Human beings are hard-wired for ritual, there is no escaping it. To say otherwise it to be dishonest.

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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Again, she is wearing a patriotic bikini, showing her patriotism.
    Unless it was made from a flag, she is a patriot.
    It's a fake picture. But flag bikinis are a violation of the "no flags as wearing apparel" provision of the code. So yes, that is disrespectful.

  3. #263
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    If we cannot burn a flag we own, or wear a bikini, jock strap, t-shirt, or vest made out of a flag, then the flag means nothing and it would mean nothing to wear it.

    the fact that people can burn it and not be persecuted is why the flag and what it stands for is stronger than either protestors who denigrate it or fascists who want to shoot someone who burns it



  4. #264
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    How about this (you're going to be known as the flag code guru after this).

    I think some people are offended when they see anyone displaying any sort of patriotism.
    If they depict the displaying of it as somehow disrespectful than maybe they'll see less of it.
    Makes me want to go have my truck painted just for the hec of it.
    Last edited by Barbbtx; 06-02-11 at 10:12 PM.
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  5. #265
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's a fake picture. But flag bikinis are a violation of the "no flags as wearing apparel" provision of the code. So yes, that is disrespectful.
    Was the bikini made from a flag? No. It was made from a bolt of red and white striped fabric and from a bolt of blue fabric with white stars. No one took an American flag and cut it up to make a bikini. That would be wrong.
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Was the bikini made from a flag? No.
    This is from 4 USC 1:
    The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.The words “flag, standard, colors, or ensign”, as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America.

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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Incorrect. My time is valuable, and I am not going to relieve you of your burden in the debate. You should support your own arguments and not whine about having to do so. At least you've done the former

    Now, my answers? The first three murals clearly violate flag code, the last picture clearly does not.
    You didn't see the beauty in them. sad
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  8. #268
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I think what you don't like is the word ritual. You are not averse to oaths and pledges (which are rituals), and you take them seriously to the point that you will not dishonestly take an oath. Why? Is this not because you value the ritual of oath taking?

    I value my word, if I am to give it, especially if I am to swear to its validity than it has meaning -significant meaning, this has nothing to do with a ritual, it has everything to do with "I attest that what I am saying is true". It is an honesty thing, not a ritual thing.

    You are splitting hairs by calling giving an oath or giving your word a ritual, especially when it is not formalized. If I go out and come back at 4 am and say to my girlfriend "I give you my word I was not at the strip cub" or "I swear I was not at the strip club", or "I pledge I will not cheat on you" this is not a ritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If the Pledge did not contain the words "under God," presumably you would say it, right? That's a ritual you would value, right?
    No, I would still have to pledge allegiance to a symbol (the flag), I feel no allegiance to the symbol. If you removed that I still would not feel much value to the ritual, nor to saying the pledge, it really does feel like a watered down reflexive activity. I would not feel dishonest in saying it if those were removed; however I do not quite grasp the validity of saying it over and over just because. If you swore allegiance, then that is it, you have sworn allegiance. No need to do it again and again. although others may look at you funny and with disdain even if you do not participate - at least if i were so motivated I could say it honestly, and actually mean it, although I find the repetition unnecessary. The only reasons to do so is to affirm to others around you that you are of a like mind, and it is often more uncomfortable not going along with the ritual -even if you find it hollow- than to just go along with it, especially when others cannot seem to grasp that ritualistic behavior really is not something that you personally put any stock in.

    So basically at times I might say an amended version as you proposed simply to not feel awkward, and I could at least do so honestly - at others I might not feel compelled to, and it certainly would never be an overwhelming compulsion to join in, but rather an acceptance that this holds significant meaning to others, and that others actually do take offense when I do not participate. Just like now on the rare occasions that I mouth a truncated pledge in lieu of not saying it, it would still feel kind of silly to participate in the ritualistic behavior, this would not change with an amended version.

    Human beings are hard-wired for ritual, there is no escaping it. To say otherwise it to be dishonest.
    I have to disagree on the hard wired bit, although humans seem to be attuned and drawn towards ritualistic behaviors. I have said this repeatedly, I find this to be based on primitive behaviors, it is a relic of bygone ages and times IMO. Unfortunately it seems you cannot fathom that someone else does not find significance or meaning in ritual. I doubt we will get much further going back and forth over it.
    Last edited by marduc; 06-02-11 at 10:40 PM.
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  9. #269
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    You didn't see the beauty in them. sad
    What on earth are you talking about. Had you bothered to read the thread before shooting your mouth off, you might have seen the post

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's a nice painting, I just wish it was indoors. It's a violation.
    Why don't you wait until you've read the whole thread before you spout off, huh? Do your due diligence!

  10. #270
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    Re: Is Sarah Palin's use of the American flag a breach of federal law?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    If we cannot burn a flag we own, or wear a bikini, jock strap, t-shirt, or vest made out of a flag, then the flag means nothing and it would mean nothing to wear it.

    the fact that people can burn it and not be persecuted is why the flag and what it stands for is stronger than either protestors who denigrate it or fascists who want to shoot someone who burns it
    There's a difference between what you can do and what you should do. There are rights, and there are morals.

    I would defend to my death the right of a hippie to burn a flag in protest, but I sure as hell wouldn't shake his hand.

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