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Circumstance of Birth

Do you believe that "Circumstance of Birth exists?


  • Total voters
    5
I'm pretty sure your profession and weight aren't predetermined at birth. You choose whether or not to eat that food, and what you enjoy doing. You choose whether to try hard in school or to blow it off. You choose whether to accept that job or not, or to even apply for it.

Ok. Let's take it in the opposite direction. I'm not saying most people aren't fat because of their habits, especially in this country. But they certainly must have the genetic ability to get fat in the first place.

I don't. I can hardly eat fast enough to keep myself out of the "underweight" category. There is nothing medically wrong with me. I've been tested for every possible thing that could cause unexplained weight loss. Both my parents were thin into their 40's and still are pretty trim now. I have to consciously try to keep myself over 110, which is the minimum healthy weight for my height. I can't even eat fast food, because it makes me lose weight. Since the calories are empty and it has no real nutritional value, it just goes in one end and out the other. Am I choosing to be skinny? No. I can choose to do what I need to in order to be healthy, but I didn't choose for it to be difficult.

Did I choose my (future) profession? Well, again, yes and no. There are some things I am just not that good at. There are other things I'm very good at. While I could be better at some things I'm bad at if I tried, I won't ever be as good as someone with talent. So I chose what my professional will be within the context of the things I am good at, and perhaps talented at.
 
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Ok. Let's take it in the opposite direction. I'm not saying most people aren't fat because of their habits, especially in this country. But they certainly must have the genetic ability to get fat in the first place.

I don't. I can hardly eat fast enough to keep myself out of the "underweight" category. There is nothing medically wrong with me. I've been tested for every possible thing that could cause unexplained weight loss. Both my parents were thin into their 40's and still are pretty trim now. I have to consciously try to keep myself over 110, which is the minimum healthy weight for my height. I can't even eat fast food, because it makes me lose weight. Since the calories are empty and it has no real nutritional value, it just goes in one end and out the other. Am I choosing to be skinny? No. I can choose to do what I need to in order to be healthy, but I didn't choose for it to be difficult.

Did I choose my (future) profession? Well, again, yes and no. There are some things I am just not that good at. There are other things I'm very good at. While I could be better at some things I'm bad at if I tried, I won't ever be as good as someone with talent. So I chose what my professional will be within the context of the things I am good at, and perhaps talented at.

MN...don't know if you read my opening post for this thread...but do you believe that any or every aspect of your life was predetermined...PRIOR to birth...either by you are some entity?

Remember...its a satire...a spoof list of pre-birth preferences..

I'm really trying to establish the existence of circumstance of birth. I say that we are all just who we are at birth. We are wired at birth in every way to be who we are. Including our sexual orientation.
 
MN...don't know if you read my opening post for this thread...but do you believe that any or every aspect of your life was predetermined...PRIOR to birth...either by you are some entity?

Remember...its a satire...a spoof list of pre-birth preferences..

I'm really trying to establish the existence of circumstance of birth. I say that we are all just who we are at birth. We are wired at birth in every way to be who we are. Including our sexual orientation.

Basically you're asking if we have free will, if I'm reading correctly?

I don't think we do. I do think everything is pre-determined by some action before it. Perhaps genetics, perhaps just the particular thread of reality we live in.

We do have the illusion of free will, though. Even if you believe in free will, it's obvious I had no choice over my metabolism (and I think it should be obvious no one has choice over their sexuality), but I have the illusion of control over what I do about it. It's still only an illusion, but on practical terms, that doesn't matter.

By entertaining your illusion of free will by, say, encouraging someone who's fat to change their lifestyle, they may actually do it and be healthier. This doesn't really mean you have free will because something else may have pre-determined your decision to talk to that person, but it doesn't matter in reality. It's a positive outcome no matter whether you were truly in control or not.

If you're going to ask if I'd encourage someone to change their homosexual lifestyle, no. Because being gay doesn't hurt anyone, and trying to suppress it hurts the person who is gay. Trying to lose weight if you're overweight helps everyone, including the person who's overweight.
 
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Basically you're asking if we have free will, if I'm reading correctly?

I don't think we do. I do think everything is pre-determined by some action before it. Perhaps genetics, perhaps just the particular thread of reality we live in.

We do have the illusion of free will, though. Even if you believe in free will, it's obvious I had no choice over my metabolism (and I think it should be obvious no one has choice over their sexuality), but I have the illusion of control over what I do about it. It's still only an illusion, but on practical terms, that doesn't matter.

By entertaining your illusion of free will by, say, encouraging someone who's fat to change their lifestyle, they may actually do it and be healthier. This doesn't really mean you have free will because something else may have pre-determined your decision to talk to that person, but it doesn't matter in reality. It's a positive outcome no matter whether you were truly in control or not.

If you're going to ask if I'd encourage someone to change their homosexual lifestyle, no. Because being gay doesn't hurt anyone, and trying to suppress it hurts the person who is gay. Trying to lose weight if you're overweight helps everyone, including the person who's overweight.

MN...I've completely botched the intent of my thread.

What I want people to consider from my opening post...after examining the list, which is a satirical list, a spoof of sorts, which was intended to raise the question..."Did I or any entity pre-determine all of the immutable characteristics prior to birth. Or are we simply a product of circumstance of birth.

As silly to some as that may sound, there are a lot of people who believe that every aspect of their lives, including immutable characteristics is predetermined. And for some they believe that their characteristics are superior by divine design.

I personally believe us to be a product of "circumstance of birth". From top to bottom, inside and out.

But one important characteristic that is important to consider is sexual orientation. I believe that we're born wired with our sexuality as we are with all other physical and psychological characteristics.

So that's my ploy, which failed miserably.

I hope this makes better sense..

The whole argument that we see in so many threads is that our sexual orientation is learned rather than a '"circumstance of birth".
 
MN...I've completely botched the intent of my thread.

What I want people to consider from my opening post...after examining the list, which is a satirical list, a spoof of sorts, which was intended to raise the question..."Did I or any entity pre-determine all of the immutable characteristics prior to birth. Or are we simply a product of circumstance of birth.

As silly to some as that may sound, there are a lot of people who believe that every aspect of their lives, including immutable characteristics is predetermined. And for some they believe that their characteristics are superior by divine design.

I personally believe us to be a product of "circumstance of birth". From top to bottom, inside and out.

But one important characteristic that is important to consider is sexual orientation. I believe that we're born wired with our sexuality as we are with all other physical and psychological characteristics.

So that's my ploy, which failed miserably.

I hope this makes better sense..

The whole argument that we see in so many threads is that our sexual orientation is learned rather than a '"circumstance of birth".

Heh, it's all good. :) I think I was on the right page the first time. Those things, including sexuality, are all circumstances of birth, I totally agree.

What I was simply saying is that we can choose how we handle that. In the case of weight problems, we can choose to fight against a natural propensity to be too heavy or too thin, because that can cause harm.

However, in the case of homosexuality, there is no harm, so why fight it?

I was basically just extending the argument into what comes after acknowledging circumstance of birth.
 
MN...I've completely botched the intent of my thread.

What I want people to consider from my opening post...after examining the list, which is a satirical list, a spoof of sorts, which was intended to raise the question..."Did I or any entity pre-determine all of the immutable characteristics prior to birth. Or are we simply a product of circumstance of birth.

As silly to some as that may sound, there are a lot of people who believe that every aspect of their lives, including immutable characteristics is predetermined. And for some they believe that their characteristics are superior by divine design.

I personally believe us to be a product of "circumstance of birth". From top to bottom, inside and out.

But one important characteristic that is important to consider is sexual orientation. I believe that we're born wired with our sexuality as we are with all other physical and psychological characteristics.

So that's my ploy, which failed miserably.

I hope this makes better sense..

The whole argument that we see in so many threads is that our sexual orientation is learned rather than a '"circumstance of birth".
Are you saying all psychological characteristics and specifically sexual orientation is purely genetic?

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Are you saying all psychological characteristics and specifically sexual orientation is purely genetic?

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I'm saying that those two elements are determine through the developmental stages. Psychological development is an ongoing process, but guided innate wiring.

Sexual orientation...? YEP, that's what I'm saying. I believe we are born however we are. I'm saying sexual orientation isn't a learned behaviors.
 
Are you saying all psychological characteristics and specifically sexual orientation is purely genetic?

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Why do you think everyone has different things that make them happy? I absolutely have psychological characteristics that I can't help. And this determines what makes me happy.

Sexual orientation may or may not be strictly genetic, but it is certainly established prior to birth, likely through epigenetics that are established in the womb by hormonal influences that lead to certain brain structures that seem to influence sexuality.
 
Just because we don't choose these things doesn't we shouldn't discriminate based on them. Some people are just born better than others.
 
Why do you think everyone has different things that make them happy? I absolutely have psychological characteristics that I can't help. And this determines what makes me happy.

Sexual orientation may or may not be strictly genetic, but it is certainly established prior to birth, likely through epigenetics that are established in the womb by hormonal influences that lead to certain brain structures that seem to influence sexuality.

That's possible. I'd have to research it...see if there are any conclusive...or a study offering "more likely than not" research finding.

I'm fully aware of what's called "environmental sexual orientation shifts". Meaning there are people who, by a traumatic event (or life changing event), they shift from their innate sexuality to a different one. But even then, that's not what I call a learned behavior.

There are no absolutes. But when we can accept hair color, eye differences being a genetic event, etc, etc, how can we avoid the possibility that everything about our being isn't scribed into us during our development?

Thanks MN for participating in my really pretty bad thread. I'll do better next time.
 
Why do you think everyone has different things that make them happy? I absolutely have psychological characteristics that I can't help. And this determines what makes me happy.

Sexual orientation may or may not be strictly genetic, but it is certainly established prior to birth, likely through epigenetics that are established in the womb by hormonal influences that lead to certain brain structures that seem to influence sexuality.
So why do twins have different personalities?

If sexual orientation is determined prior to birth and could be identified and the parents considered it to be a defect, should they abort based on that information?

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So why do twins have different personalities?

If sexual orientation is determined prior to birth and could be identified and the parents considered it to be a defect, should they abort based on that information?

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Twins may also have different epigenetic factors, in addition to the obvious environmental factors.

Why is this always the first question people who don't want to admit being gay is innate ask? Seriously, it's scary. What's with you people?

"Should" they abort? Well, seeing as how there is no evidence that being gay IS a defect, that's a pretty flawed question.
 
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Twins may also have different epigenetic factors, in addition to the obvious environmental factors.

Why is this always the first question people who don't want to admit being gay is innate ask? Seriously, it's scary. What's with you people?

"Should" they abort? Well, seeing as how there is no evidence that being gay IS a defect, that's a pretty flawed question.
You are the one that is sure it is innate. I think it is a combination of genetics, enviornment, and experiences.

Evidence is immaterial if the parents consider it a defect. My guess is that a very substantial portion of the USA population would consider aborting if they knew the child would be homosexual. In some countries I think it would be almost universal.

If sexual orientation is strictly genetic, I hope they never figure out a test for it. I am certainly glad my parents did not have that information.


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You are the one that is sure it is innate. I think it is a combination of genetics, enviornment, and experiences.

Evidence is immaterial if the parents consider it a defect. My guess is that a very substantial portion of the USA population would consider aborting if they knew the child would be homosexual. In some countries I think it would be almost universal.

If sexual orientation is strictly genetic, I hope they never figure out a test for it. I am certainly glad my parents did not have that information.


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Well, all the evidence says it's innate. There's none suggesting that it isn't. Which I should side with, if I'm being intellectually honest, is obvious. We may not understand all of the mechanisms in play yet, but we're not that far off and the direction of all the evidence is clear.

I really doubt this would be a question in the minds of societies where people are seen as people. I lived in Europe for a while, and I find it hard to believe anyone there would abort a fetus if they found out it would be gay. Socities that are so bigoted that most people would don't usually have access to decent medical technology for most people (there's a pretty heavy correlation between social/economic strife and bigotry... hmmmm...).

But all the same, the theoretical child would probably be better off than to be born to such hateful parents, in all honesty.
 
"Should" they abort? Well, seeing as how there is no evidence that being gay IS a defect, that's a pretty flawed question.

It's a defect. I'm perfectly comfortable with prospective mothers aborting for this reason.
 
It's a defect. I'm perfectly comfortable with prospective mothers aborting for this reason.


It's been awhile since you read "how to win friends and influence people"?
 
It's been awhile since you read "how to win friends and influence people"?
Is your goal in being on DP to win friends and influence people? :lamo

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"circumstance of birth" is often used in arguments to support welfare and other means of supporting and aiding others.

Sometimes it's a sensible discussion and sometimes it's just a ploy to pluck heartstrings in an attempt to dictate others.

Yet according to some faiths you do, in fact, choose your family.
 
Without an understanding about what our fundamental genetic wiring is, which "establishes" behaviors, such as sexual orientation, we will never know how to address the personal and social consequences related to those universal behaviors.

Regardless of who is attracted to who...sexual behaviors are a function of the human experience that won't go away.

To think other wise is beyond naive.

Thanks
 
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Without an understanding about what our fundamental genetic wiring is, which "establishes" behaviors, such as sexual orientation, we will never know how to address the personal and social consequences related to those universal behaviors.

Regardless of who is attracted to who...sexual behaviors are a function of the human experience that won't go away.

To think other wise is beyond naive.

Thanks
I also believe it is a function of the human experience but the human experience continues after birth.

You and others have stated that psychological characteristics are determined prior to birth. I think believing one can know this with certainty is asinine.

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Without an understanding about what our fundamental genetic wiring is, which "establishes" behaviors, such as sexual orientation, we will never know how to address the personal and social consequences related to those universal behaviors.

Regardless of who is attracted to who...sexual behaviors are a function of the human experience that won't go away.

To think other wise is beyond naive.

Thanks

Replying in general or to a particular post?
 
Replying in general or to a particular post?

Removable Mind said:
Without an understanding about what our fundamental genetic wiring is, which "establishes" behaviors, such as sexual orientation, we will never know how to address the personal and social consequences related to those universal behaviors.

Regardless of who is attracted to who...sexual behaviors are a function of the human experience that won't go away.

To think otherwise is beyond naive.

Aunt... It's a clarification comment. Feel free to respond however. I might add that in a social context, this INTENDED (which I botched its meaning terribly) meaning of the thread is examining the issues that people use to discriminate or raise prejudices. People who degrade or demean others for "immutable characteristics" are at the least bigots. Many are racists.

For instances. I don't believe that our sexual orientation is a "learned behavior". I believe it is, for the most part, and immutable characteristic. I also believe there are some who might alter that orientation for reasons related to traumatic events.

So, if sexual orientation is literally proven to be an immutable characteristic...then those who attack homosexuality as a choice, which they deem against our nature, which is to believe that people are innately (circumstance of birth, by the way) heterosexual - would no longer have a basis for their arguments and beliefs.

Thanks for participating.
 
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Thanks

Aunt... It's a clarification comment. Feel free to respond however. I might add that in a social context, this thread is examining the issues that people use to discriminate or raise prejudices. People who degrade or demean others for "immutable characteristics" are at the least bigots. Many are racists.

For instances. I don't believe that our sexual orientation is a "learned behavior". I believe it is, for the most part, and immutable characteristic. I also believe there are some who might alter that orientation for reasons related to traumatic events.

So, if sexual orientation is literally proven to be an immutable characteristic...then those who attack homosexuality as a choice, which they deem against our nature, which is to believe that people are innately (circumstance of birth, by the way) heterosexual - would no longer have a basis for their arguments and beliefs.

Thanks for participating.
You sure are back pedaling. Have you changed your mind or was you just being dishonest in your earlier posts?

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