View Poll Results: Do you believe that "Circumstance of Birth exists?

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Thread: Circumstance of Birth

  1. #31
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    MN...I've completely botched the intent of my thread.

    What I want people to consider from my opening post...after examining the list, which is a satirical list, a spoof of sorts, which was intended to raise the question..."Did I or any entity pre-determine all of the immutable characteristics prior to birth. Or are we simply a product of circumstance of birth.

    As silly to some as that may sound, there are a lot of people who believe that every aspect of their lives, including immutable characteristics is predetermined. And for some they believe that their characteristics are superior by divine design.

    I personally believe us to be a product of "circumstance of birth". From top to bottom, inside and out.

    But one important characteristic that is important to consider is sexual orientation. I believe that we're born wired with our sexuality as we are with all other physical and psychological characteristics.

    So that's my ploy, which failed miserably.

    I hope this makes better sense..

    The whole argument that we see in so many threads is that our sexual orientation is learned rather than a '"circumstance of birth".
    Are you saying all psychological characteristics and specifically sexual orientation is purely genetic?

    .

  2. #32
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Are you saying all psychological characteristics and specifically sexual orientation is purely genetic?

    .
    I'm saying that those two elements are determine through the developmental stages. Psychological development is an ongoing process, but guided innate wiring.

    Sexual orientation...? YEP, that's what I'm saying. I believe we are born however we are. I'm saying sexual orientation isn't a learned behaviors.

  3. #33
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Are you saying all psychological characteristics and specifically sexual orientation is purely genetic?

    .
    Why do you think everyone has different things that make them happy? I absolutely have psychological characteristics that I can't help. And this determines what makes me happy.

    Sexual orientation may or may not be strictly genetic, but it is certainly established prior to birth, likely through epigenetics that are established in the womb by hormonal influences that lead to certain brain structures that seem to influence sexuality.

  4. #34
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Just because we don't choose these things doesn't we shouldn't discriminate based on them. Some people are just born better than others.

  5. #35
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Why do you think everyone has different things that make them happy? I absolutely have psychological characteristics that I can't help. And this determines what makes me happy.

    Sexual orientation may or may not be strictly genetic, but it is certainly established prior to birth, likely through epigenetics that are established in the womb by hormonal influences that lead to certain brain structures that seem to influence sexuality.
    That's possible. I'd have to research it...see if there are any conclusive...or a study offering "more likely than not" research finding.

    I'm fully aware of what's called "environmental sexual orientation shifts". Meaning there are people who, by a traumatic event (or life changing event), they shift from their innate sexuality to a different one. But even then, that's not what I call a learned behavior.

    There are no absolutes. But when we can accept hair color, eye differences being a genetic event, etc, etc, how can we avoid the possibility that everything about our being isn't scribed into us during our development?

    Thanks MN for participating in my really pretty bad thread. I'll do better next time.

  6. #36
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Why do you think everyone has different things that make them happy? I absolutely have psychological characteristics that I can't help. And this determines what makes me happy.

    Sexual orientation may or may not be strictly genetic, but it is certainly established prior to birth, likely through epigenetics that are established in the womb by hormonal influences that lead to certain brain structures that seem to influence sexuality.
    So why do twins have different personalities?

    If sexual orientation is determined prior to birth and could be identified and the parents considered it to be a defect, should they abort based on that information?

    .

  7. #37
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    So why do twins have different personalities?

    If sexual orientation is determined prior to birth and could be identified and the parents considered it to be a defect, should they abort based on that information?

    .
    Twins may also have different epigenetic factors, in addition to the obvious environmental factors.

    Why is this always the first question people who don't want to admit being gay is innate ask? Seriously, it's scary. What's with you people?

    "Should" they abort? Well, seeing as how there is no evidence that being gay IS a defect, that's a pretty flawed question.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-31-11 at 09:05 PM.

  8. #38
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Twins may also have different epigenetic factors, in addition to the obvious environmental factors.

    Why is this always the first question people who don't want to admit being gay is innate ask? Seriously, it's scary. What's with you people?

    "Should" they abort? Well, seeing as how there is no evidence that being gay IS a defect, that's a pretty flawed question.
    You are the one that is sure it is innate. I think it is a combination of genetics, enviornment, and experiences.

    Evidence is immaterial if the parents consider it a defect. My guess is that a very substantial portion of the USA population would consider aborting if they knew the child would be homosexual. In some countries I think it would be almost universal.

    If sexual orientation is strictly genetic, I hope they never figure out a test for it. I am certainly glad my parents did not have that information.


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  9. #39
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    You are the one that is sure it is innate. I think it is a combination of genetics, enviornment, and experiences.

    Evidence is immaterial if the parents consider it a defect. My guess is that a very substantial portion of the USA population would consider aborting if they knew the child would be homosexual. In some countries I think it would be almost universal.

    If sexual orientation is strictly genetic, I hope they never figure out a test for it. I am certainly glad my parents did not have that information.


    .
    Well, all the evidence says it's innate. There's none suggesting that it isn't. Which I should side with, if I'm being intellectually honest, is obvious. We may not understand all of the mechanisms in play yet, but we're not that far off and the direction of all the evidence is clear.

    I really doubt this would be a question in the minds of societies where people are seen as people. I lived in Europe for a while, and I find it hard to believe anyone there would abort a fetus if they found out it would be gay. Socities that are so bigoted that most people would don't usually have access to decent medical technology for most people (there's a pretty heavy correlation between social/economic strife and bigotry... hmmmm...).

    But all the same, the theoretical child would probably be better off than to be born to such hateful parents, in all honesty.

  10. #40
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    Re: Circumstance of Birth

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    "Should" they abort? Well, seeing as how there is no evidence that being gay IS a defect, that's a pretty flawed question.
    It's a defect. I'm perfectly comfortable with prospective mothers aborting for this reason.

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