View Poll Results: Birth permit?

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  • Yes, direct permit (license)

    7 30.43%
  • Yes, indirect permit (taxation)

    1 4.35%
  • Hell no, this is an outrageous idea!

    4 17.39%
  • No, the state must stay out of this

    7 30.43%
  • I don't know

    1 4.35%
  • Other

    3 13.04%
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Thread: Birth permit

  1. #1
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    Birth permit

    Social welfare, overpopulation, resource scarcity, ethnic map, etc. Do you think they can or must result in a "birth permit", i.e. the state dictating demographics in exchange of welfare, for example? Could it be direct (license) or indirect (taxation) permit?
    Should criminals, drug addicts, hobos, etc be allowed to have children?

    Are we headed that direction? I mean, China already implemented something like this (heavy taxation for a second child) due to huge population and scarce territory. Please, share your thoughts.
    Last edited by Canell; 05-31-11 at 02:50 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Birth permit

    In theory, yes. In theory, I think we should just stop letting people breed until all the kids that are already here and homeless are adopted.

    But I can't support that in reality, for 2 reasons.

    1. It's a violation of human rights, and subject to not-necessarily-accurate personal judgment.

    2. There's better ways to go about it. China's birth rate right now, 1-child policy and all, is about 1.8. But countries with better education and less poverty have an even lower birth rate. Most of Western Europe is in the 1.2-1.8 range. Education works better - it just requires more effort.

  3. #3
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    Re: Birth permit

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    2. There's better ways to go about it. China's birth rate right now, 1-child policy and all, is about 1.8. But countries with better education and less poverty have an even lower birth rate. Most of Western Europe is in the 1.2-1.8 range. Education works better - it just requires more effort.
    Actually you have that backwards.. Countries with worse education and poverty have higher birthrates..

    List of sovereign states and dependent territories by birth rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Birth rate (most recent) by country

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    Re: Birth permit

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonMyst View Post
    Actually you have that backwards.. Countries with worse education and poverty have higher birthrates..

    List of sovereign states and dependent territories by birth rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Birth rate (most recent) by country
    Yes, that's what I said. Lower education and more poverty correlated with higher birth rate (I was using per-woman stats, not per-1000). Given that more of the Western European people have access to education, and less are poor, it is understandable why their birth rates are the same or lower than China's, even without a law limiting number of children.

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    Re: Birth permit

    I am on the fence on this one.. I see many valid and good reasons to limiting our nations birth rate.. The question is really, how do you do it and how do you enforce it.. What about religious issue??

  6. #6
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    Re: Birth permit

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Yes, that's what I said. Lower education and more poverty correlated with higher birth rate (I was using per-woman stats, not per-1000). Given that more of the Western European people have access to education, and less are poor, it is understandable why their birth rates are the same or lower than China's, even without a law limiting number of children.
    *Sigh* My bad.. Read that wrong.. It is getting late for me I guess.. But you are correct.. I misread your post.. Sorry about that..

  7. #7
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    Re: Birth permit

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonMyst View Post
    *Sigh* My bad.. Read that wrong.. It is getting late for me I guess.. But you are correct.. I misread your post.. Sorry about that..
    All good, cuzzy. I get it. I got a couple beers in me. What's a forum if you can't be excessively tired or tipsy while typing?

  8. #8
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    Re: Birth permit

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    Yes, that's what I said. Lower education and more poverty correlated with higher birth rate (I was using per-woman stats, not per-1000). Given that more of the Western European people have access to education, and less are poor, it is understandable why their birth rates are the same or lower than China's, even without a law limiting number of children.
    This is a well-documented issue. It boils down to death rates, primarily a function of child-mortality. First death rates fall (due to education, sanitation, medical care and food security among other factors) and only then do birth rates fall. Basically, if 50% of your children are probably going to die then you have more than replacement fertility.

    Demographic transition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    At any rate, China is a tough place to compare to other places. Their totalitarian control of even the most basic thing like reprouction and their non-transparent calculation of child mortality (formally and informally) make most of their figures unreliable. Like their economy, it is difficult to discern what is really happening (similar to the USSR back in the day).

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    Re: Birth permit

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonMyst View Post
    I am on the fence on this one.. I see many valid and good reasons to limiting our nations birth rate.. The question is really, how do you do it and how do you enforce it.. What about religious issue??
    You don't have to. Good sex ed and reducing poverty work better. It's more hard work, but it's ethically better anyway. China's 1.8 birth rate is only what they report. It's actually probably higher than that in reality. In which case, Western Europe (and possibly even us) are doing way better than China already, with no legal child limits needed.

    In addition to that, China's policy has lead to some pretty bad stuff - forced abortion, infanticide, etc.

  10. #10
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    Re: Birth permit

    The demographic transition is extensively documented. It has happened in every nation in which death rates dropped.


    Lower the death rate and the birth rate follows: fact.

    Education can alo be a factor but usually by the time we have gotten to that point the basic sanitation and food issues have been solved and the death rate is dropping. One example of education helping is in Kenya, where the division of family land between many children has taught people to family plan more extensively; however, Kenyans are willing to consider family planning (mostly the chronologic spacing of births) only because most of their children survive today (and that's what caused the problem with land divisions in the first place). Thus, education in Kenya is speeding up the demographic transition. Without the death rate dropping, however, education does little to no good.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 05-31-11 at 03:33 AM.

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