View Poll Results: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

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  • Okay as it is/make only minor changes

    7 25.00%
  • Take away all government financial incentives

    1 3.57%
  • Make some specific changes only

    0 0%
  • Take government out of marriage completely

    13 46.43%
  • Other

    7 25.00%
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Thread: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

  1. #71
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    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    To get a bit more esoteric with this, I am going to challenge that. I'm not making a point, necessarily - just describing a differing position that I'm curious of your position on. To do that, I'm going to use myself as an example.

    I obviously disagree with the institution of marriage. I also happen to be childfree (no kids, under any circumstances).

    So what does that leave me with?

    Well, first it leaves me with tons of time for other pursuits in life. Some of these pursuits happen to be very humanitarian. I want to positively change the world, and I work towards that. I haven't placed anyone higher than me, and yet that doesn't mean I act selfishly.

    Secondly, it requires me to completely reframe how I see relationships. I do not focus on an end goal. The relationship lasts however long it does, whether that's forever or until next week. While I am more than willing to work out problems, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. But what is absolutely critical to me is true honesty and caring, intellectual enjoyment, etc.

    I'm friends with all of my ex's, with the exception of one who turned out to be a crazy stalker dude. My partners and ex's tell me I am the least dramatic person they've ever been involved with, and we learned a lot from each other.

    I am not placing them above me. I won't sacrifice my happiness. But that doesn't mean I'm being selfish. It just means I have different goals in a relationship. And that I use my desire to affect positive change differently. And I think more productively.

    Do you think what I'm doing hurts society? Do you think I'm selfish, because I think marriage is, for me, a waste of time and a false road to accomplishment?
    As long as you stick to the no children policy, it doesn't hurt society.

    Selfish is when someone does enter into a marriage contract, then is not willing to give his/her partner equal status.

    No, I don't think your selfish. I think you're missing out on an important part of life, though.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  2. #72
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    As long as you stick to the no children policy, it doesn't hurt society.

    Selfish is when someone does enter into a marriage contract, then is not willing to give his/her partner equal status.

    No, I don't think your selfish. I think you're missing out on an important part of life, though.
    Even if I don't (which I'd put on a ridiculous scale of improbability, but nonetheless), why is that selfish without a marriage contract? Lots of couples cohabitate with kids. Some people even decide consciously to have kids on their own. As long as they have the emotional and financial ability to pull it off, what's wrong with it?

    And what makes you think what's important to you is important to me? What if I think what you're doing is the most miserable life I could imagine for myself? You are aware that some people regret marrying and having kids, even if the situation is ideal, yes? Lots of middle-aged and beyond people are now saying they wished they'd taken a different approach to life.

    There's no actual reason why by taking my approach I'm missing out on anything.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-31-11 at 02:51 AM.

  3. #73
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    My question is, what should the government's involvement in marriage be?
    None at all.

    A marriage is a contract. It should be treated like any other.

    People should be allowed to individually and mutually tailor their marriage contracts to suit themselves.

    The only role for government is to enforce them like any other contract.

  4. #74
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Government should be completely out of the marriage business. I don't see why you have to ask government's permission to be married anyway.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Marriage is a legal institution.
    As such, the state must create said institution, and then define the legalities of same.
    This cannot happen without the state, and so the state, by the very nature of the legal institution, must be intimate with said institution.

  6. #76
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Marriage is a legal institution.
    As such, the state must create said institution, and then define the legalities of same.
    This cannot happen without the state, and so the state, by the very nature of the legal institution, must be intimate with said institution.
    It didn't used to be. The Marriage License didn't come about till after the Civil War; and that was to prevent inter-racial marriage.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #77
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It didn't used to be. The Marriage License didn't come about till after the Civil War; and that was to prevent inter-racial marriage.
    That may be the case -- but the fact of the matter is that the benefits and priviliges brought forth by the legal institution of marraige are the impetus behind the entire issue.

    If you're not interested in these things, you're free to refer to whomever you wish as your spouse.

  8. #78
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    That may be the case -- but the fact of the matter is that the benefits and priviliges brought forth by the legal institution of marraige are the impetus behind the entire issue.

    If you're not interested in these things, you're free to refer to whomever you wish as your spouse.
    Those don't need to come with marriage and certain things like tax breaks, deductions from kids, breaks on mortgage rates, etc. should be done away with anyway. The contractual privilege found in the marriage license can be broken up in to several separate contracts and made available for whomever wishes to engage in them.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #79
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It didn't used to be. The Marriage License didn't come about till after the Civil War; and that was to prevent inter-racial marriage.
    From Wikipedia:

    History

    For most of Western history, marriage was a private contract between two families. Until the 16th-century, Christian churches accepted the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple’s declarations. If two people claimed that they had exchanged marital vows—even without witnesses—the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married.

    State courts in the United States* have routinely held that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage.[1] Marriage license application records from government authorities are widely available starting from the mid-19th century with many available dating from the 17th century in colonial America.[2] Marriage licenses from their inception have sought to establish certain prohibitions on the institution of marriage. These prohibitions have changed throughout history. In the 1920s, they were used by 38 states to prohibit whites from marrying blacks, mulattos, Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Mongolians, Malays or Filipinos without a state approved license.[1] At least 32 nations have established significant prohibitions on same-sex marriage.[3]
    So, you're partly correct.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Those don't need to come with marriage...
    They are the impetus behind the issue.
    If these things did not come with marriage, the huge majority of those pushing the SSM issue would not care.
    Listen to the arguments - they are almost always about denying 'rights' to homosexuals.

    The contractual privilege found in the marriage license can be broken up in to several separate contracts...
    Some of them, yes. Some of them, no.
    No personal contract can protect you from the state forcing your spouse from testifying against you.
    No personal contract can force a hospital to allow your spouse to see you.
    Etc.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 06-01-11 at 05:16 PM.

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