View Poll Results: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

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  • Okay as it is/make only minor changes

    7 25.00%
  • Take away all government financial incentives

    1 3.57%
  • Make some specific changes only

    0 0%
  • Take government out of marriage completely

    13 46.43%
  • Other

    7 25.00%
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Thread: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

  1. #31
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    To answer your last question first, by guaranteeing property rights and inheritances, and by tax incentives.
    OK, you have a point with property rights and inheritances, but those can be taken care of with a will. As for tax incentives, have they every eliminated the "marriage penalty"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    To answer why 41% are born outside wedlock, the single biggest reason is that a woman gets more Welfare/foodstamps/etc if she has lots of kids and no husband. At least, no husband-of-record.
    Now, you've put your finger on a way in which the state is discouraging marriage and family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The second biggest reason is that forty years of applying "critical thinking" to all the traditional institutions that formed the building blocks of our society have resulted in a loss of respect for all those institutions, including the institution of marriage and family. Granted, some of those institutions (like seperate but equal) were bad and needed to be destroyed, but we've thrown the baby out with the bath water.

    Once upon a time, divorce and pre-marital pregnancy were heavily stigmatized and most children were born IN wedlock. How far we've come, eh?

    How far indeed. It has become socially acceptable to have children with no father. How sad.





    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Absolutely. Erosion of the family unit, erosion of traditional values, erosion of parental authority, erosion of the moral authority of the values our society once held to.
    yep. That hits the nail on the head, no question.

    So, in the face of breakdown of the basic unit of society, what can we expect government to do to improve the situation? Is there anything really?
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  2. #32
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    This has nothing to do with sanctity, there is no sanctity in marriage. If you make marriage harder to get into and harder to get out of, more people are going to stop and think about the issue seriously before they get married, thus reducing the number of divorces and bad marriages to begin with. The reason there are so many bad marriages is because anyone with $50 in their hand can go get a license and get married tomorrow and get divorced the day after.
    No, they aren't. Most people do think about it, that's the unfortunate thing. It's just that they make the mistake of thinking humans are life-maters. For the most part, we aren't. The entire institution is based on a fallacy, which is why I think it'd be better if we didn't have it. It's ALWAYS been like that, even when divorce was illegal or so frowned upon that no one did it. There's no way to stop most marriages from eventually falling apart. That's what happens when you pretend to be something you're not, and pretend to know something you don't.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-30-11 at 11:29 PM.

  3. #33
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    In a perfect world, no government involvement would be ideal.

    Unfortunately this just isn't practical. There are divorces, taking place in government courts, along with estate disputes about who gets what because X was married to Y and then Z and has children by both, etc.

    The State has a vested intrest in promoting family, as it is one of the fundamental building blocks of civilization. Without structures to support and raise and civilize children, the next generation will grow up to be a pack of barbarians and civilization will collapse. Therefore some kind of incentives to build families is in the State's intrest. This has been the case for millenia.

    The details, of course, are up for grabs...
    You really think marriage is holding society up? There are some societies that are already abandoning it (not in a legal sense necessarily, but the marriage rates are dropping even faster than here) because it's long since been out-dated. They just co-habitate.

    Why can't families form without some piece of paper and some totally backwards perks? Why don't people who aren't married deserve to have that kind of control over their affairs? Why does the state get to decide who can get married? And if marriage is such an incentive for families, why do half of them fall apart regardless of if they have kids, or how old they are at the time of divorce?
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-30-11 at 11:30 PM.

  4. #34
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    Just ask. She might enjoy a few more dudes around to choose from.

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  5. #35
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    OK, you have a point with property rights and inheritances, but those can be taken care of with a will. As for tax incentives, have they every eliminated the "marriage penalty"?



    Now, you've put your finger on a way in which the state is discouraging marriage and family.




    How far indeed. It has become socially acceptable to have children with no father. How sad.







    yep. That hits the nail on the head, no question.

    So, in the face of breakdown of the basic unit of society, what can we expect government to do to improve the situation? Is there anything really?

    There are a number of things that would probably help to some degree.

    Phase out welfare-as-we-know-it. Don't penalize women for being married, but don't reward them for having more kids while on welfare. Turn Welfare into Workfare. Turn the other hand-out programs into hand-UP programs.

    I think men are often reluctant to wed because there really aren't a lot of incentives for it unless you're religious. Typically, if a man's wife cuts him off there's nothing he can do about it. He can file for a no-fault divorce and she gets half; or he can cheat and get caught and lose even more. If there's a divorce he probably won't get custody of his children. She can frack with his visitation but if he doesn't pay child support on time in full he goes to jail. At present, virtually everything in marriage and divorce law is drastically slanted in favor of women.... no wonder fewer and fewer men want to marry. It ought to be a little bit more balanced, methinks.

    Some better tax incentives, I suppose, though really I despise the practice of using taxes for social engineering.

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  6. #36
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    You really think marriage is holding society up? There are some societies that are already abandoning it (not in a legal sense necessarily, but the marriage rates are dropping even faster than here) because it's long since been out-dated. They just co-habitate.

    Why can't families form without some piece of paper and some totally backwards perks? Why don't people who aren't married deserve to have that kind of control over their affairs? Why does the state get to decide who can get married? And if marriage is such an incentive for families, why do half of them fall apart regardless of if they have kids, or how old they are at the time of divorce?
    Who owns what when you go your seperate ways? If there are children, who do they go with? If you can't agree on these things, who will decide? If there is no legal, moral or societal incentive to stay in a relationship, won't children be more likely to be subjected to a series of temporary father-figures (or in a few cases, temporary mommies). Stability is important for childrearing. Once we had that stability, when divorce was more difficult and more stigmatized by society.

    There's a reason why marriage has been the norm for thousands of years.

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  7. #37
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Who owns what when you go your seperate ways? If there are children, who do they go with? If you can't agree on these things, who will decide? If there is no legal, moral or societal incentive to stay in a relationship, won't children be more likely to be subjected to a series of temporary father-figures (or in a few cases, temporary mommies). Stability is important for childrearing. Once we had that stability, when divorce was more difficult and more stigmatized by society.
    When marriage was about power not love.

  8. #38
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    When marriage was about power not love.
    My parents were born in the 20's. They married for love. They stayed married for life, despite various ups and downs. My mother was never the same after my father passed; when her friends told her she should consider dating, she said that she had never wanted any other man and never would. 57 years.

    This used to be commonplace.

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  9. #39
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This used to be commonplace.
    Not really. Of course, theres no way to prove it one way or the other.

  10. #40
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    Re: What should be the government's involvement in marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Who owns what when you go your seperate ways? If there are children, who do they go with? If you can't agree on these things, who will decide? If there is no legal, moral or societal incentive to stay in a relationship, won't children be more likely to be subjected to a series of temporary father-figures (or in a few cases, temporary mommies). Stability is important for childrearing. Once we had that stability, when divorce was more difficult and more stigmatized by society.

    There's a reason why marriage has been the norm for thousands of years.
    Even with marriage, those disputes don't seem at all immune to people being people. I think the expectation that goes with marriage actually makes it worse. Life-long happy marriages have always been a minority.

    Things were no better before divorce was legal/acceptable. Unhappy marriages were just as common, and so were abusive marriages. The only difference was that they had no way of getting away from each other so they just stayed miserable longer, and dragged their kids down with them.

    There's also a reason why marriage is virtually unrecognizable from what it initially was.

    It's a faulty institution built on a faulty premise every step of the way. When it was basically a formal slave contract for women, well, the problem with that is fairly obvious. When it became merely a practicality, the problem with forcing people into life-long misery with strangers was obvious. And now that it's an institution of love, which are the best possible chances you could give a marriage, and it STILL fails most of the time, we see the real issue for what it is. It's just a poor idea.

    For some reason, no matter how hard it tries or how many times it re-formulates itself, marriage as an institution just can't ever seem to get it together.

    Just because it's been going on a long time doesn't make it a good idea. Plenty of bad ideas last for thousands of years. Humans just ain't that smart, especially in groups.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-31-11 at 12:13 AM.

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