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SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

Same-sex marriage is wrong because

  • It isn't, and should be available to all gay couples

    Votes: 65 78.3%

  • Being gay is wrong, so they can't get married

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • The sanctity of marriage. No, I wasn't laughing. I was coughing. *cough* ... see?

    Votes: 2 2.4%

  • It will set a bad example for Christian youth

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I don't honestly have a good reason, but I still say no

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 14 16.9%
  • Total voters
    83
LuckyDan said:
I object to any characterization of an anti-SSM stance as "bigotry." I didn't feel personally insulted, but then isn't the implication in your original statement of wanting to defeat bigotry aimed at those who oppose SSM? As if hatred of gays is the only possible motivation? It's unfair and inaccurate.

And it isn't my personal marriage that I consider devalued by SSM. It's the institution of marriage, and thereby family - and I mean blood family across generations - that is devalued.

And forgive me, but I just don't - after all this time reading all these pro- SSM posts on DP - understand why gays suddenly feel they cannot be happy unless they are married. Where did this come from?

If I were a homosexual man, I would understand that my lifestyle will not be traditional. And if I were lucky enough to find another man who cared for me, and who I wanted to spend my life with, how would a state-recognized marriage make our lives together any better? What would we lack, aside from some weird facade of "equality" with our opposite sex friends?
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Well I will be honest right back with you if you are saying if there was a vote tomorrow to allow gays equal rights and you would vote "no" then I have to tell you that you would be one or more of the following:

Unreasonable
illogical
discriminator
bias
pompous
selfish
arrogant
hypercritical
Homophobic
bigot
anti-american

pick one or more because I have yet heard any arguments that would make you fall out side of these terms? But please feel free to do so if you feel its unfair and inaccurate Id LOVE to hear why.

No mind you my question is about you choosing to STOP gay marriage, not continuing to believe, think, preach, teach, feel its wrong or gross or what ever. Im talking about you has an american actively stopping it.

ANyway the "institution" of marriage wouldn't be in danger either, the institution is still what YOU make it, not anybody else. Again I feel thats a cop out. I have many values in my head and opinions on things and what others do will never effect them.

People cheat, swing, abuse eachother etc etc did that change the "institution" for you? no of course not.
I can get married tomorrow by elvis does that change it for you? nope

also where do you come up with this "suddenly" like they havent wanted it for YEARS and YEARS but were to afraid to talk about it or didnt think it was possible etc.
When blacks wanted equal rights do you think it just magically started one day? or years and years but when it seemed more likely there was more talk about it? LOL come one you're being dishonest.

also your opinion of what is traditional is meaningless in your example, marrying the person you love is "traditional" so? your traditions are your and having not impact on mine and vice versa

What they lose out on is EQUALITY compared to other married couples. Security, protection etc etc

Main point is its none of your business just like your marriage is none of mine, in america its a pretty simple concept if your objective.

equal rights for gays will come to pass sooner or later and in reality your life wont change nor will you values or your view of any institutions.
 
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A constitutional amendment is simply not going to happen. The requirements are too high to ever get it done. Getting 2/3 of the senate for something like this is simply impossible. When DOMA is overturned, FMA is not going to be a realistic option. What will be tried is another DOMA with narrower language, but even that is unlikely to pass unless the senate goes much more conservative, and of course a republican sits in the WH. Further, such a DOMA would be unlikely to survive court challenges if it actually had any provision about not recognizing SSM from other states, and without that language, what is it's point.

About the best anti-SSM forces can hope for is a compromise on a civil union the same as marriage arrangement, and even that is unlikely.
 
LuckyDan said:
I'm pretty sure many states would put it on a public ballot.
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To get to the states requires 2/3 of both houses to pass it on. Not going to happen.
 
Centrist77 said:
Well I will be honest right back with you if you are saying if there was a vote tomorrow to allow gays equal rights and you would vote "no" then I have to tell you that you would be one or more of the following:

Unreasonable
illogical
discriminator
bias
pompous
selfish
arrogant
hypercritical
Homophobic
bigot
anti-american
pick one or more because I have yet heard any arguments that would make you fall out side of these terms? But please feel free to do so if you feel its unfair and inaccurate Id LOVE to hear why.

No mind you my question is about you choosing to STOP gay marriage, not continuing to believe, think, preach, teach, feel its wrong or gross or what ever. Im talking about you has an american actively stopping it.

ANyway the "institution" of marriage wouldn't be in danger either, the institution is still what YOU make it, not anybody else. Again I feel thats a cop out. I have many values in my head and opinions on things and what others do will never effect them.

People cheat, swing, abuse eachother etc etc did that change the "institution" for you? no of course not.
I can get married tomorrow by elvis does that change it for you? nope

also where do you come up with this "suddenly" like they havent wanted it for YEARS and YEARS but were to afraid to talk about it or didnt think it was possible etc.
When blacks wanted equal rights do you think it just magically started one day? or years and years but when it seemed more likely there was more talk about it? LOL come one you're being dishonest.

also your opinion of what is traditional is meaningless in your example, marrying the person you love is "traditional" so? your traditions are your and having not impact on mine and vice versa

What they lose out on is EQUALITY compared to other married couples. Security, protection etc etc

Main point is its none of your business just like your marriage is none of mine, in america its a pretty simple concept if your objective.

equal rights for gays will come to pass sooner or later and in reality your life wont change nor will you values or your view of any institutions.
Click to expand...

Call me whatever, dude. I really don't care.

It is interesting that you rebut my valuing of the institution of marriage with examples of how it has already been cheapened. Do you regret that your examples make a mockery of marriage? Will SSM make the institution stronger? Or make it even more meanlingless?

I'm up too late. I'll check in tomorrow.

Night.
 
Redress said:
A constitutional amendment is simply not going to happen. The requirements are too high to ever get it done. Getting 2/3 of the senate for something like this is simply impossible. When DOMA is overturned, FMA is not going to be a realistic option. What will be tried is another DOMA with narrower language, but even that is unlikely to pass unless the senate goes much more conservative, and of course a republican sits in the WH. Further, such a DOMA would be unlikely to survive court challenges if it actually had any provision about not recognizing SSM from other states, and without that language, what is it's point.

About the best anti-SSM forces can hope for is a compromise on a civil union the same as marriage arrangement, and even that is unlikely.
Click to expand...

Nah, I think once the tide turns, the anti SSM people will move to get government out of marriage entirely.
 
LuckyDan said:
Let's get it out of the House and find out.
Click to expand...

The house is the easiest part. The Senate will be where it dies even if it does get out of the house. Even getting out of the house is somewhat unlikely.
 
LuckyDan said:
Call me whatever, dude. I really don't care.

It is interesting that you rebut my valuing of the institution of marriage with examples of how it has already been cheapened. Do you regret that your examples make a mockery of marriage? Will SSM make the institution stronger? Or make it even more meanlingless?

I'm up too late. I'll check in tomorrow.

Night.
Click to expand...
seems you have an issue with reality, I didnt call you anything. I asked you a question which I dont have an answer too and I said if you would actively stop gay marriage I would say your one or more of those things in my list. I dont have an answer so I never called you anything.

also my examples I gave are how people cheapen THEIR marriage not mine or yours, seems you are having trouble understanding the two are totally different.

I dont regret my examples at all they support my position 100%, those things exist yet my view of marriage isnt changed one bit, my value of marriage isnt changed one bit, how I view the institution of marriage isnt changed one bit LMAO

WHo gets to decide what marriage is and what the institution is then? just you? different religion value it different ways, guess they all get left out in the cold or we only do it YOUR way so they can have their institution devalued right?

what dont you get?

Gay marriage will have ZERO impact on the institution. why? because the institution is on an individual level and its only what they want it to be and they make it.

Anything else is a cop out and fantasy.

What is interesting to me is that you called marriage meaningless and you think its going to get more meaningless, is that the way you feel about your marriage? its meaningless?

Ill be waiting for you do address this post and the prior.
Night to you
 
CriticalThought said:
Nah, I think once the tide turns, the anti SSM people will move to get government out of marriage entirely.
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any of them that do that will just be desperate becuase thats a lost battle and will never happen.
 
evanescence said:
I disagree. Just because marriage became a civil issue, that fact alone did not and cannot severe that relationship. People who marry at a court house will swear to God their vows. God is mentioned so it is by nature religious.



This is an issue that people will never agree on-like abortion, for instance. I'm only saying that government involvement, like most government involvement, is unnecessary.



-ok.
Click to expand...

I never swore any vows to or under God when I got married. God was not mentioned in my ceremony at all, and I wore a dress, had bride's maids and rings, it wasn't done by a JotP, etc. God does not have to be a part of marriage if a couple does not want God or any other higher power to be part of their marriage.

Government involvement in marriage is vary necessary, if only to keep track of who is married in order to protect each person within the relationship. But in tracking the relationship, it also helps the government avoid being screwed over by people who might take advantage of any "extras" that are offered with marriage.
 
LuckyDan said:
But then don't we have the "full faith and credit" matter to deal with? If DOMA goes, the only alternative will be a constitutional amendment to define marriage. That means going back to the voters. And a public debate. I'm looking forward to it, myself.
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea what it would take to get a same sex marriage amendment passed on the national level? There is no way that there is that much support out there for such an amendment. Those wanting an amendment to ban interracial marriage couldn't even come up with that much support, and the poll then showed that >70% of Americans were against interracial marriages. The polls now are showing that same sex marriage support is at 50% and increasing. Passing such an amendment would be against the will of many voters and likely to be political suicide, especially in the midst of so many other, more important matters. It would also likely be repealed within a decade, if not sooner.
 
CriticalThought said:
Nah, I think once the tide turns, the anti SSM people will move to get government out of marriage entirely.
Click to expand...

Although some probably will do this, I doubt it will become the popular route to take.

Half the population is for SSM now. But out of those who are against SSM, I bet many are government employees of some kind, including military or retired military. Unless they are completely ignorant of what the ramifications will be of the government being completely removed from marriage, they will likely just complain about it for a while and then forget about it. It will only be brought up when it has something to do with them personally (a relative gets a SSM or they own a business where they have to give benefits equally if they base any of those on marital status).

And it is unlikely that they will agree to take the word marriage out of the government documents. In fact, I bet you that any movement to make it civil unions for everyone, especially if done after SSM is legalized, you will see at least some of the opposition to this as those who were the opposition to SSM. In fact, at least some of them would probably blame gay people for the movement and try to claim that it is one of the things that they knew would happen if gays got SSM.
 
winston53660 said:
Well the numbers of people against gay marriage has been steadily dropping quite dramatically and I have not heard any one pushing for the FMA.
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Since the number of GLBT and GLBT-friendly combined with people who are no longer adamantly against gay marriage now outnumber the number who are against, I wonder how long it will be before the politicos realize it's not in their best interest to pander to the 'against' team.
 
LuckyDan said:
And it isn't my personal marriage that I consider devalued by SSM. It's the institution of marriage, and thereby family - and I mean blood family across generations - that is devalued.

If I were a homosexual man, I would understand that my lifestyle will not be traditional. And if I were lucky enough to find another man who cared for me, and who I wanted to spend my life with, how would a state-recognized marriage make our lives together any better? What would we lack, aside from some weird facade of "equality" with our opposite sex friends?
Click to expand...

Sorry, no coffee. I'll reconsider my original post, which began "Are you ****ING kidding me!?" /erase

1) The nuclear family no longer exists. With divorces, remarriages, and all the stepkids in between - sorry. it just doesn't.

2) Are you ****ING kidding me!? Seriously?? "I would understand that my lifestyle will not be traditional." Maybe back in the day that was true. But most gays lead a traditional life. Well, except Ellen. I'd kill for her life. But I digress. People fall in love every day. They decide to spend their lives together, every day. But if they are both the same gender, they don't get to take that next step. Because? Apparently, they're not equal. They are less than, and therefore.
 
LuckyDan said:
If I were a homosexual man, I would understand that my lifestyle will not be traditional. And if I were lucky enough to find another man who cared for me, and who I wanted to spend my life with, how would a state-recognized marriage make our lives together any better? What would we lack, aside from some weird facade of "equality" with our opposite sex friends?
Click to expand...

Why would you get married, then? As a heterosexual man, how does a state-recognized marriage make your life better?
 
blood family across generations - that is devalued.
Click to expand...

I'm ok with that. People gravitate to their own, and more than blood is required to keep a family together. I don't see the family unit as being intregral to societal progress. I'm no commie, but blood should not be so important to people. Still, marriage (given religious connotations) has no place in government.


@BD
I'd kill for her life.
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Just for that one super-hot gf alone, nevermind the fortune and fame.
 
ecofarm said:
Just for that one super-hot gf alone, nevermind the fortune and fame.
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Good lord, she's a beauty. And I'm pretty sure she's Ellen's wife, since they did get married in the window of having the right to do so.
 
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