View Poll Results: Same-sex marriage is wrong because

Voters
113. You may not vote on this poll
  • It isn't, and should be available to all gay couples

    77 68.14%
  • Being gay is wrong, so they can't get married

    16 14.16%
  • The sanctity of marriage. No, I wasn't laughing. I was coughing. *cough* ... see?

    4 3.54%
  • It will set a bad example for Christian youth

    0 0%
  • I don't honestly have a good reason, but I still say no

    1 0.88%
  • Other (please explain)

    15 13.27%
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Thread: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

  1. #1531
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Religious wedding ceremonies produce legal marriages (if done in accordance with state law.) Non-religious wedding ceremonies produce legal marriages (if done in accordance with state law). I don't even understand your concept of "separate" - of course they are separate in that they are done in different locations. They both produce legal marriages (if done in accordance with state law).
    Personal marriage (which some people consider to be their religious marriage because they live it in accordance with religious rules) and legal marriage are what are separate. I explained this about 2 pages back as to what they would be referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    The wedding ceremony takes place before there is a marriage, don't really understand your reference to a personal marriage. What do you mean by personal or impersonal? What has that got to do with how/where the ceremony took place?
    Not everyone requires a ceremony before there is a real marriage. In fact, it is quite common in the military for a couple to simply get a marriage done by the JOP for the area that they are in, and then do an actual wedding ceremony afterward, usually in their home state. They are legally married prior to having an actual wedding ceremony, since they do not consider the JOP signing a ceremony.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Huh? What "either" could exist without the other one? If you are talking about "religious ceremonies" and "non-religious ceremonies" - yes, they could exist without the other but that is not what the people of America want. There are many that do not want a "religious ceremony" and many that do, so the states provide you the opportunity to choose.
    Personal marriage and legal marriage, not just the ceremonies. Either can exist without the other, but most of the time they both exist parallel in a couple's life, especially in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    According to me, what? You don't break out your response, so I really don't know what you are referring to.
    Considering that was not anywhere in my post, I don't know what you are talking about. I looked at the post I made and couldn't find the quote that was supposed to be mine within that post that you are responding with this to.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    And who said anything contrary to that? The government doesn't really care where a couple gets married. Only that it is done according to law, so that you can reap the benefits that come with marriage, and that applies to "legal marriages". Ceremonies performed in psuedo churches, without licenses do not produce legal marriages and the couples in these type of marriage are not eligible for the benefits that go with marriages.
    You're right that to get benefits, the government has to recognize the marriage, but that doesn't mean that people don't get married without the license. There are religions, including denominations of Christianity, that will wed couples without a marriage license. They do this because their own religious beliefs conflict with the marriages that the government will recognize but in order to live as a married couple in accordance with their religious beliefs, they need to be recognized as married by their church.

    Also, it is wrong to call any church a "pseudochurch" (unless they are something like Pastafarian). Just because they have different beliefs than you do, does not mean that they are a false religion or church, even if they consider themselves to be part of the Christian faith. Different sects of Christianity believe different things, including what marriage is and whether marriage can be between two men or two women or involve more than 2 people. Christianity, at its core, is simply believing that Christ is the Messiah who died for your sins and believing in his teachings, it doesn't necessarily mean that a person has to believe every part of the Bible. Also, their ceremonies are just as valid to them as your religious ceremonies are to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Duh! Who said anything different? Even if you don't have a fancy ceremony, the very act of some official/clergy signing the license "before authorized witnesses" can be considered a ceremony.
    I would consider the two things separate. Especially since signing the license is usually done after the wedding, not during. The signing is not usually a part of the ceremony.

    Plus, as I said above, there are a lot of couples who get a legal marriage before they have a wedding ceremony, but they still have both and would generally consider refer to their wedding as the ceremony, not the simple signing of their license.

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    The marriage doesn't become legal until it is recorded in the court house. If a state or church allows the wedding before a license is produced, it will not become legal until a license is obtained, signed, witnessed and returned to the court to be recorded.
    For most states, yes. But there are some exceptions.

    And common law marriages are even recognized by the IRS.

    Common-law marriage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Common Law Marriage
    Common Law Marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    And? We are talking about what makes a marriage legal now, not back when Adam and Eve got together.
    Yes, but marriage is different for different people. Just because you consider it a real marriage only if it is a legal marriage does not mean that is how others view it. In fact, there are many religions that believe it can only be a real marriage if the couple lives by certain religious rules, whether they are legally married or not.

    Marriage is both a personal and legal institution. Being involved in either is all that is needed for some to consider a couple as married. The legal is all that is required for the US government to consider a couple married. And, there are some religions where the personal is all that is required to consider a couple married. Most couples have both.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Big deal, they are not married according to the state, and that is what reaps the government benefits. In the eyes of the state and those that know their marriage is not legal, they are still not married, no matter how much they love each other and how many vows they repeat.

    That is why gays are seeking SSM. If all they wanted was to be recognized as being married they would just opt for the psuedo ceremonies, but they want to be able to claim the benefits that only come with "legal" marriages.
    They are not legally married, but they are still married. As I have been saying legal marriage and personal marriage are separate things. Which is exactly why the government has no business denying SSM, since marriage can be a personal institution as well as a legal one. And the legal one is nothing more than a contract.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    They may be considered married by everyone in the world, but if they don't have a legal marriage, they cannot claim the government benefits afforded legal married couples.
    If they were considered married by everyone in the world, that would include the government and judges, so they would have a legal marriage.

    BTW, many common law marriages afford many if not all those same government benefits.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    We're not talking about pseudo ceremonies - we are talking about "legal" marriages.

    A Christian church who performs "psuedo" ceremonies is not obeying the ordinances of God, who tells us we must obey our government. For a marriage to be legal, it must follow the rules set by the state. So, to call themselves Christian is mockery.

    Romans 13:1-2
    1 Obey the government, for God is the one who put it there. All governments have been placed in power by God. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.
    Who are you to say whose religious ceremonies should be considered false ceremonies? You may have your own beliefs, but so do other people. Other people may believe that Jesus was the son of God/Messiah and died for their sins but only choose to follow what Jesus taught and nothing more from the Bible. They would still be Christians. They may not be your kind of Christians, but they are still Christians.

    Christian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A Christian (help·info) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the Canonical gospels and the letters of the New Testament. "Christian" derives from the Greek word Christ, a translation of the Hebrew term Messiah.[1]
    Christian - definition of Christian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    Notice how none of those definitions include the necessity that a Christian or a church that claims to be Christian must adhere to everything within the Bible, only the belief in Jesus as the son of God and his teachings.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #1532
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Its wrong because the church says so, and they are the ones to marry people. There is nothing wrong about gay partnership rights, but luckily 2 men cannot have children. Gay adoption is wrong to the children, social engineering of a degree we should not have. Public homosexuality, normalisation of homosexuality and so fourth should be forbidden.

    Forcing the church to marry gay people is like forcing gun advocats and owners to lobby and advertise against weapons. It simply shouldnt be done.
    Some churches do not think that homosexuality is wrong. Besides that, not everyone in the US is religious, nor are we required to be, so we should not be forced to live by the laws of any church/religion.

    Also, churches do not legally marry people, the government does. In order to have a religious officiated marriage to be legally recognized as a marriage, the couple must register their marriage with the state, through a marriage license for the vast majority.

    Churches should never be forced to marry any couple they don't want to, just as they aren't forced to do so now. If a church wanted to deny a marriage to a couple because of their race or religion or sex, any church can do that now, legally, and the vast majority of people including SSM supporters, will completely be okay with that. A church should not be forced to perform any ceremony that goes against their religious beliefs. Which is one reason why we have other people to officiate over legal marriages, including JOPs, ship captains, and other people registered to do so by a state.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #1533
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Zeebra View Post
    Its wrong because the church says so
    (100% opinion and meaningless to the debate)

    and they are the ones to marry people
    (100% false because they are not the only ones that marry people not to mention some churches already marry gay couples.)

    There is nothing wrong about gay partnership rights, but luckily 2 men cannot have children.
    (Lucky for who, you? meaningless)

    Gay adoption is wrong to the children, social engineering of a degree we should not have.
    (100% opinion and evidence shows you are wrong)

    Public homosexuality, normalisation of homosexuality and so fourth should be forbidden.
    (100% opinion again, wrong, a violation of freedoms and rights and its bigoted.)

    Forcing the church to marry gay people is like forcing gun advocats and owners to lobby and advertise against weapons. It simply shouldnt be done.
    (Nobody is trying to force churches to marry gay people, not to mention it cant be done, its against the constitution. Not sure why you said this, probably just for an emotional selling point but its meaningless to the debate also.)

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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    What's your beef. Honest to [expletive-deleted], why DO YOU care? Why are you just fine with an entire segment of the populace being denied the right to marry.
    Do you support polygamy?
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    Do you support polygamy?
    Really doesn't matter to me. Also? Has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Really doesn't matter to me. Also? Has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
    Has everything to do with the subject at hand. Your argument is that gay marriage is on equal footing as traditional marriage and should thus be recognized as such in all ways including its legal standing. It is based on the premise that marriage is not a covenant between one man and one woman before God. If that is your premise, then you believe one of two things: marriage has a definition, which you would need to provide in order for this debate to continue, or marriage has no set definition and becomes whatever society decides it should be. In either case you need to explain if you would deny marriage to a polygamous family and if so how you would logically make that denial based on your premises.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    Do you support polygamy?
    Your post wasnt to me and a totally different subject but Ill answer also and throw my 2 cents in.

    Based on American rights, laws, liberties and freedoms YES

    as long as it fall under the same basic rules as marriage or gay marriage.

    consenting sound mind human adults.

    Its simply none of my business.

    The only real hurdle for polygamy is the legal rights and sorting, which is a mountain of work but that doesnt make me against it, I just see that as a legit hurdle that needs conquered.
    Last edited by AGENT J; 06-20-11 at 12:53 PM.
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    Has everything to do with the subject at hand. Your argument is that gay marriage is on equal footing as traditional marriage and should thus be recognized as such in all ways including its legal standing. It is based on the premise that marriage is not a covenant between one man and one woman before God. If that is your premise, then you believe one of two things: marriage has a definition, which you would need to provide in order for this debate to continue, or marriage has no set definition and becomes whatever society decides it should be. In either case you need to explain if you would deny marriage to a polygamous family and if so how you would logically make that denial based on your premises.
    Traditional is YOUR opinion
    LEGAL marriage has nothing to do with god, so its not a "premise" its a fact.
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post

    Two consenting sound mind human adults.
    Why two? Your qualification of "two" demands that either marriage has a set definition that you want to uphold, or that you think society is the determining factor in how marriage is defined and society is not ready for polygamous marriage.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
    For the best news and commentary on the 2012 election from the GOP perspective, visit www.whitehouse12.com.

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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by friday View Post
    Has everything to do with the subject at hand. Your argument is that gay marriage is on equal footing as traditional marriage and should thus be recognized as such in all ways including its legal standing. It is based on the premise that marriage is not a covenant between one man and one woman before God. If that is your premise, then you believe one of two things: marriage has a definition, which you would need to provide in order for this debate to continue, or marriage has no set definition and becomes whatever society decides it should be. In either case you need to explain if you would deny marriage to a polygamous family and if so how you would logically make that denial based on your premises.
    And my first sentence was "it really doesn't matter to me." Right? Soooo whatever.

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