View Poll Results: Same-sex marriage is wrong because

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  • It isn't, and should be available to all gay couples

    77 68.14%
  • Being gay is wrong, so they can't get married

    16 14.16%
  • The sanctity of marriage. No, I wasn't laughing. I was coughing. *cough* ... see?

    4 3.54%
  • It will set a bad example for Christian youth

    0 0%
  • I don't honestly have a good reason, but I still say no

    1 0.88%
  • Other (please explain)

    15 13.27%
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Thread: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

  1. #1501
    Educator DemonMyst's Avatar
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Yes, but the reason that the legal marriage is the same is because the state decided that it is much easier to allow clergy and other people who will perform the ceremony to sign the marriage license, rather than forcing all those couples who choose to have their ceremony done by someone other than the JotP to have to say their "I do"'s twice. It isn't because the ceremonies are the same or that a person has to have a religion to even get married or that religion is involved in anyone's marriage.
    Right.. I wasn't refering to the ceremony.. That is really just a technicality.. When someone talks about marriage.. They aren't usually talking about the where and how they got married.. But marriage in general.. I might have misread what Centrist was saying.. Ceremonially, yes the two marriages are different.. Legally they are the same.. So when he says that a legal marriage and a religious one are different.. He is wrong.. Both are legally the same... The ceremony is different..

    It is true to say that you can take the religion out of marriage.. You don't need a church or religion to get married.. But all marriages are legal.. Or they aren't marriages.. Hence the debate about SSM.. Which should be legal in all states.. Constitutional it already is..

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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonMyst View Post
    Right.. I wasn't refering to the ceremony.. That is really just a technicality.. When someone talks about marriage.. They aren't usually talking about the where and how they got married.. But marriage in general.. I might have misread what Centrist was saying.. Ceremonially, yes the two marriages are different.. Legally they are the same.. So when he says that a legal marriage and a religious one are different.. He is wrong.. Both are legally the same... The ceremony is different..

    It is true to say that you can take the religion out of marriage.. You don't need a church or religion to get married.. But all marriages are legal.. Or they aren't marriages.. Hence the debate about SSM.. Which should be legal in all states.. Constitutional it already is..
    No you are wrong. Legally they are NOT the same a religious marriage does not give you a legal marriage UNLESS the people do the required LEGAL steps.

    A preacher, minister, pastor etc etc etc can conduct all the religious marriages he wants, if he doesnt have the power granted by the state and the people he is marrying dont do the required LEGAL steps they will only be RELIGIOUSLY married lol

    Right now many people in the US have RELIGIOUS marriages that arent legal and thats a fact.
    As a matter of fact there are GAYS who have a religious marriage that arent legally married.

    Religious marriage is not legal marriage nor are they the same.
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  3. #1503
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonMyst View Post
    Right.. I wasn't refering to the ceremony.. That is really just a technicality.. When someone talks about marriage.. They aren't usually talking about the where and how they got married.. But marriage in general.. I might have misread what Centrist was saying.. Ceremonially, yes the two marriages are different.. Legally they are the same.. So when he says that a legal marriage and a religious one are different.. He is wrong.. Both are legally the same... The ceremony is different..

    It is true to say that you can take the religion out of marriage.. You don't need a church or religion to get married.. But all marriages are legal.. Or they aren't marriages.. Hence the debate about SSM.. Which should be legal in all states.. Constitutional it already is..
    Sort of.

    I believe he is saying what a lot of those on the pro-SSM side have been saying for a while now, including myself. Most marriages include two parts, the personal part (which generally includes love and commitment and intimacy and other things that are hard to actually quantify, depending on the couple involved in the marriage) and the legal part (which includes any joint tax, bennies from being married, marriage license, etc.). And marriage existed prior to marriage licenses of any kind.

    Most people have both. Depending on who you talk to, either alone could exclude a couple from someone's definition of being in a "real marriage". Just as you claim it isn't a "real marriage" unless it is legally recognized, some on the anti-SSM side like to claim that no marriage is a "real marriage" without the personal part, no matter if they have the marriage license or not. The truth is that either or the combo of the two can be considered a real marriage, because that should be left up to the couple, not outsiders. Same sex couples should be allowed to enter into legal marriages if they want, but they, nor opposite sex couples should be forced to enter into the contract if they don't wish to do so but still wish to be known as "married" to their family, friends, church, as long as they aren't trying to claim a legal marriage on paperwork.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #1504
    Don't Mess With Texas
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    NO they are not because civil unions have been over turned or ruled over in case of death by family members etc etc
    That may be in the US in states where they were allowed, but speaking of civil unions in general, they can be whatever the law outlines them out to be as they currently do in other countries.

    Civil unions are NOT equal to marriage they do not carry the weight nor come with the same legal benefits / protections
    Again, are you speaking of just the US, because there are other countries where civil unions are equal to marriage. And, since me and the other poster were not specifically speaking of civil unions as they are defined "currently" in some states, but rather a hypothetical one that hasn't been defined, but could be if the demand for SSM continues to grow. States that allow SSM, although legal in that state, may not be legal in another state that does not recognize SSM. So, in that case, a "legal" marriage is just as ineffective as a "civil union".

    The terms used to designate civil unions are not standardized, and vary widely from country to country. Government-sanctioned relationships that may be similar or equivalent to civil unions include civil partnerships, registered partnerships, domestic partnerships, significant relationships, reciprocal beneficiary relationships, common-law marriage, adult interdependent relationships, life partnerships, stable unions, civil solidarity pacts, and so on. The exact level of rights, benefits, obligations, and responsibilities also varies, depending on the laws of a particular country. Some jurisdictions allow same-sex couples to adopt, while others forbid them to do so, or allow adoption only in specified circumstances.
    Wiki

    It seems there may be quite a bit you dont understand about legal marrage.
    There may be quite a bit you don't understand about what me and the other poster were talking about. I know enough about legal marriage as any informed person does, but am wondering what it is you know about it that makes you think you know so much more?

    People that get married in church are NOT considered married by the state unless they and the church choose it to be.
    In order to be legally married you need to get a marriage license from the state, you cannot get legally married without one, so a church or reputable place that is going to marry you will require you to have a license, which they will then sign and submit to the state to confirm you are legally married. I don't know of any reason why anyone would consider being married in a church and choose not to make it legal unless they planned a separate ceremony that would make it legal, or they are just doing a "performance-for show" type of wedding where a church is willing to go along with the charade, of performing a ceremony that is fake. But, I'm sure the people involved know it is not legal. The only other reason it would not be legal would be if the preacher/minister failed to return the signed/dated license indicating the ceremony took place back to the state.

    Most churches have the power to marry just like a magistrate or ANYBODY that applies for the power but a religious marriage does NOT guarantee a legal marriage.
    It it involves a license that is turned over to the state, it does, unless the preacher/magistrate forgets to turn it in. You would find out rather quickly as the state sends you a certificate of marriage once they receive the license back and register the marriage. A religious marriage that is not a legal marriage is no marriage at all, so I don't even know why you are considering it a marriage.

    Notice the part of the vows where the preacher, pastor, minister, Rabi etc etc will say "by the power invested in my by the state of blah blah blah, I know pronounce you husband and wife"
    FYI, it isn't "the power invested in me" - it is "the power vested in me".

    vest·ed   
    [ves-tid] Show IPA
    –adjective
    1.
    held completely, permanently, and inalienably: vested rights.
    2.
    protected or established by law, commitment, tradition, ownership, etc.: vested contributions to a fund.
    3.
    clothed or robed, especially in ecclesiastical vestments: a vested priest.

    With out that power given by the state and people applying for a marriage license religious marriage have NOTHING to do with legal marriages unless the for mentioned is done.
    Without power given by the state and no license, there is no legal marriage whether performed in the church or elsewhere.

    SO no simply getting a religious marriage does NOT give you legal marriage, there are churches that marry gay couples right now and they are not LEGALLY married because that state currently discriminates against them.
    Any marriage that does not involve a license or an authorized person performing the ceremony are not even marriages, they are just performances. Most reputable churches would not have anything to do with such a charade.

    Also the reverse is also true, I can get married by singing elvis or a magistrate or anybody that has the power to do marriages and it will have nothing to do with religion unless I chose it to.
    And, if you don't have a license and the person is not authorized to perform the ceremony, you are not legally married either. Most people consider a "religious" ceremony one that is performed in a "church" or "sanctuary". Just because God is mentioned, unless it is held in a church or place of worship (not necessarily a church but used as a place to worship) doesn't make it a religious ceremony.
    Hopefully you understand now.
    Hopeful you understand that you didn't say anything that I didn't already know, and hopefully you won't make the mistake of saying "by the power invested in me" - and hopefully you won't assume that people don't know something and proceed to tell them what they already know and then act as if you informed them.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
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  5. #1505
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    That may be in the US in states where they were allowed, but speaking of civil unions in general, they can be whatever the law outlines them out to be as they currently do in other countries.
    No offense but everything I have referred to I am talking about the US so Im not interested in other countries Im talking about here.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Again, are you speaking of just the US, because there are other countries where civil unions are equal to marriage. And, since me and the other poster were not specifically speaking of civil unions as they are defined "currently" in some states, but rather a hypothetical one that hasn't been defined, but could be if the demand for SSM continues to grow. States that allow SSM, although legal in that state, may not be legal in another state that does not recognize SSM. So, in that case, a "legal" marriage is just as ineffective as a "civil union".

    The terms used to designate civil unions are not standardized, and vary widely from country to country. Government-sanctioned relationships that may be similar or equivalent to civil unions include civil partnerships, registered partnerships, domestic partnerships, significant relationships, reciprocal beneficiary relationships, common-law marriage, adult interdependent relationships, life partnerships, stable unions, civil solidarity pacts, and so on. The exact level of rights, benefits, obligations, and responsibilities also varies, depending on the laws of a particular country. Some jurisdictions allow same-sex couples to adopt, while others forbid them to do so, or allow adoption only in specified circumstances.
    Wiki
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    There may be quite a bit you don't understand about what me and the other poster were talking about. I know enough about legal marriage as any informed person does, but am wondering what it is you know about it that makes you think you know so much more?
    I know everything I need to know to debate my statements and how they work in the US, he doesnt and you didnt because you made two inaccurate ones.

    I dont know how my statements stand outside the US nor do I care as I wasnt debating that.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    In order to be legally married you need to get a marriage license from the state, you cannot get legally married without one, so a church or reputable place that is going to marry you will require you to have a license, which they will then sign and submit to the state to confirm you are legally married. I don't know of any reason why anyone would consider being married in a church and choose not to make it legal unless they planned a separate ceremony that would make it legal, or they are just doing a "performance-for show" type of wedding where a church is willing to go along with the charade, of performing a ceremony that is fake. But, I'm sure the people involved know it is not legal. The only other reason it would not be legal would be if the preacher/minister failed to return the signed/dated license indicating the ceremony took place back to the state.
    Thanks for repeating all the stuff I already said and YEAAAA you dont know people that would do that but the fact remains they do.

    Also there are many people that hold their religion true and dear and the religious marriage without the legal part is just a valuable to THEM!, Its not your decision "if its real or not"

    Its not legally recognized but its real to THEM, you dont get to decide what is important or matter to them LOL Calling it a charade is pompous and ignorant.



    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    It it involves a license that is turned over to the state, it does, unless the preacher/magistrate forgets to turn it in. You would find out rather quickly as the state sends you a certificate of marriage once they receive the license back and register the marriage. A religious marriage that is not a legal marriage is no marriage at all, so I don't even know why you are considering it a marriage.
    Again repeating stuff I said I agree the religious body or any body must do the LEGAL steps with out them there is no LEGAL marriage.
    I consider religious marriage to be exactly what it is, a RELIGIOUS marriage. Here in the US there are people that are in fact religiously married and not legally married.



    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    FYI, it isn't "the power invested in me" - it is "the power vested in me".

    vest·ed   
    [ves-tid] Show IPA
    –adjective
    1.
    held completely, permanently, and inalienably: vested rights.
    2.
    protected or established by law, commitment, tradition, ownership, etc.: vested contributions to a fund.
    3.
    clothed or robed, especially in ecclesiastical vestments: a vested priest.
    this typo/mistakes changes what about the facts I posted again? lol nothing, good catch, funny but has no impact.


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Without power given by the state and no license, there is no legal marriage whether performed in the church or elsewhere.
    thanks again for repeating things I have already said in the thread LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Any marriage that does not involve a license or an authorized person performing the ceremony are not even marriages, they are just performances. Most reputable churches would not have anything to do with such a charade.
    Thats your OPINION but religious only marriages can be and are already performed here in the US


    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    And, if you don't have a license and the person is not authorized to perform the ceremony, you are not legally married either. Most people consider a "religious" ceremony one that is performed in a "church" or "sanctuary". Just because God is mentioned, unless it is held in a church or place of worship (not necessarily a church but used as a place to worship) doesn't make it a religious ceremony..




    uhm who said mention god makes it a religious ceremony alone? not me nor is it me that is capable of answering that for ALL people. Maybe thats all some people need, its not my decision how they view their ceremony.

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Hopeful you understand that you didn't say anything that I didn't already know, and hopefully you won't make the mistake of saying "by the power invested in me" - and hopefully you won't assume that people don't know something and proceed to tell them what they already know and then act as if you informed them.
    If you say so but the fact remains you made false inaccurate statements when you said:

    "In certain states, a civil union provides the same benefits as a legal marriage."
    wrong, not in any united states because civil unions are not as concrete.

    and

    "People getting married in a church are officially considered married by the state"
    wrong unless they do the LEGAL part they are in fact not.

    So next time maybe you will say stuff that is correct and I wont have to inform you that its false
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  6. #1506
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    FYI for anybody who cares...

    "Informal Marriage" (some states - Common Law) is legal in many states and is legally recognized the same as "formal marriages" performed by Civil authorities or Clergy.

    Just sayin...

  7. #1507
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    FYI for anybody who cares...

    "Informal Marriage" (some states - Common Law) is legal in many states and is legally recognized the same as "formal marriages" performed by Civil authorities or Clergy.

    Just sayin...
    Thanks Rm!

    Yep that is very true, my parents were actually married this way (Common Law) but PA stop doing it.
    But also another FYI related to that

    when my dad got sick and was on his death bed every Lawyer and HR person and insurance person recommended they get married again to protect my mom from being screwed. Legal marriage holds the most weight law wise and is the most concrete.

    Thats why civil unions, power of attorney, common law all lose vs real legal marriage.
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  8. #1508
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    Thanks Rm!

    Yep that is very true, my parents were actually married this way (Common Law) but PA stop doing it.
    But also another FYI related to that

    when my dad got sick and was on his death bed every Lawyer and HR person and insurance person recommended they get married again to protect my mom from being screwed. Legal marriage holds the most weight law wise and is the most concrete.

    Thats why civil unions, power of attorney, common law all lose vs real legal marriage.
    I hear ya...but again, various states have different statutes that dictate the legalities involved, including death related issues.

    The real key to departing without hassles...Have an air-tight will whether or not in a "formal marriage or informal marriage".

  9. #1509
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    I hear ya...but again, various states have different statutes that dictate the legalities involved, including death related issues.

    The real key to departing without hassles...Have an air-tight will whether or not in a "formal marriage or informal marriage".
    I agree my dad tripled down once everyone told him that he needs to get remarried the formal way. He got paranoid because theres also some cases on the books where if the formal marriage is recent to time of death that scum bag insurance companies, and retirement fund agencies etc try to fight them.

    So even after the remarriage he redid his will, made her executor, and gave my mom power of attorney to make sure we were all protected.

    This is why I tried to tell people there's no replacement for formal legal marriage. Anyone who says otherwise simply doesn't know.
    Civil unions and any other various paperwork will never give you the ease and concrete protection of marriage. And I agree it doesnt hurt to double up just in case. (IE will etc.)

    This is why I will always be for equal rights of gays.
    Last edited by AGENT J; 06-06-11 at 01:51 PM.
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  10. #1510
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    Re: SSM (Same-sex marriage) is wrong because?

    Yes, gays should have 100% equal rights.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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