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Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

Are Entitlement Neccessary?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 51.5%

  • No

    Votes: 11 33.3%

  • Sometimes.

    Votes: 4 12.1%

  • Don't know.

    Votes: 1 3.0%
  • Total voters
    33
Harry Guerrilla said:
Of course not, but when people misplace luxuries for needs, that is assumed to be right.
When someone has to pay for one of the most important things to them, it's wrong?

How much is your life worth to you? and how much are you willing to pay for it?
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Realistic folks can probably pretty accurately guess the percentage of people we place in mental health facilities that 'cant afford insurance' that have cellphones and cable TV. And smoke. And drink.

Priorities are a funny thing. Most people find a way to pay for what is really important to them, misguided 'needs' though they may be.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Of course not, but when people misplace luxuries for needs, that is assumed to be right.
When someone has to pay for one of the most important things to them, it's wrong?

How much is your life worth to you? and how much are you willing to pay for it?
Click to expand...

People don't have to pay for education. You think education is more important than staying alive? You think medical care isn't a need?

My life shouldn't have a dollar symbol attached to it. We got rid of that when slavery ended.
 
MistressNomad said:
People don't have to pay for education. You think education is more important than staying alive? You think medical care isn't a need?

My life shouldn't have a dollar symbol attached to it. We got rid of that when slavery ended.
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Price is just the most efficient form of rationing we have.
That's it for us.

Top down doesn't work, there is no immediate signals to make it work.
Life does have a $ attached to it whether we like it or not.
If we nationalize medical care, the government will put a ceiling on what they will pay for to treat you.
Betcha $100.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Price is just the most efficient form of rationing we have.
That's it for us.

Top down doesn't work, there is no immediate signals to make it work.
Life does have a $ attached to it whether we like it or not.
If we nationalize medical care, the government will put a ceiling on what they will pay for to treat you.
Betcha $100.
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If you don't like the care, go private. Because when it has to compete with public, the cost of private drops drastically. And when I say "drastically," I mean even the poor could probably afford at least what they need, completely out of pocket.
 
When it comes to healthcare I know that we can reform our system to make things much cheaper while providing superior care to what we have now. I may make a thread about it later when I have time.
 
MistressNomad said:
History proves you wrong. Pure capitalism never works. You wind up with a giant poor caste and not much else. Monopolies can and do take over - the market doesn't control them. Societies with a socialist aspect just do better. Better education, longer lives, higher standard of living, more competitive, lower crime, etc. And there's a sweet spot of socialist qualities that seem to work best. We're shy of it. Some countries overdo it.

We have the worst care, most people dying of lack of access to care, and the most expensive care in the developed world and you think it's fine? We also have the shortest life expectancy,

Yeah, RICH people fly in. Rich people are all you care about, aren't they? Yes, enough money will buy you some medical attention. But if you don't have money, you get the bottom of the barrel.
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Geeezus. Seriously? Rich people is all they care about. Except of course...they sure do have a lot of free resources in YOUR state. And Many others. In fact...get away from all the socialist 'free' healthcare talking points and BS and point me to a state that DOESNT have those resources. And BTW...in case you missed it...places like Cuba, England, Canada...they have some awfully long waiting lines...some VERY dismal socialized healthcare, and are having to scale back services because they are taking the country en-masse into poverty.

More people working, preparing for their future, providing for themselves and the offspring they bring into the world. Less dependent leeches that drop out of high school and run to the free clinics to get labelled as 'disabled'. I guarantee you the system gets better.
 
VanceMack said:
Geeezus. Seriously? Rich people is all they care about. Except of course...they sure do have a lot of free resources in YOUR state. And Many others. In fact...get away from all the socialist 'free' healthcare talking points and BS and point me to a state that DOESNT have those resources. And BTW...in case you missed it...places like Cuba, England, Canada...they have some awfully long waiting lines...some VERY dismal socialized healthcare, and are having to scale back services because they are taking the country en-masse into poverty.

More people working, preparing for their future, providing for themselves and the offspring they bring into the world. Less dependent leeches that drop out of high school and run to the free clinics to get labelled as 'disabled'. I guarantee you the system gets better.
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Yes, we do. A state with tons of public programs and generous entitlements, that receives one of the lowest returns on our federal taxes of anywhere in the nation. Have I mentioned I'm going to school for free? Or that finding jobs is relatively easy here, compared to anywhere else I've been in the country in the last couple years? Or that we also have great schools and low crime? Yeah, socialistic societies fail so hard.

Like ER's here don't have long waiting lines? As though waiting is worse than dying from not being able to get treatment at all?

Bringing that up is such a red harring. Whatever damage the economy may be doing, places with public health care still have better care for more people than we do. Every now and then I see a Brit or a Canadian pop up in these threads and say "Seriously guys, things are pretty good here. I got an appointment in 3 days just the other week. What is with all this talk of things collapsing? Not seeing it here in reality."

You act as though laziness is the main problem. Shows how many poor people you talk to.
 
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empireofreason said:
What do you think? Are basic entitlements necessary? if yes, what conditions would you apply to make those entitlement fair? If not, how can you justify allowing poverty and crime that will ensue?
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How about a "birth permit"? If the country provides you with resources wouldn't it be fair to ask whether you can or cannot create another US citizen or citizens?
 
MistressNomad said:
California is a uniquely mis-managed state. I think everyone agrees on that. ;) But here's a question: would you rather live in Arizona or Minnesota? Having just moved from Arizona to Minnesota, I can tell you there are a few things I notice immediately, back on the job hunt and having a lapse in insurance.

1. The economy here is way better. While it may be true that living is cheaper in AZ, it's only by a bit, and there are no jobs, and the ones there are pay less money, and the cost of living is not significantly cheaper to bridge the gap. Minnesota has more jobs, that pay better, sufficiently to bridge the gap in higher cost of living which really isn't that much higher. In fact, I can get a studio in Minneapolis for less than I was paying in AZ.

2. There are fewer resources in AZ. ACCESS (a low-income health option) is basically inaccessible unless you work for min wage part-time (if you're unemployed you don't qualify, and if you make $1300-ish a year you don't qualify), which you can't live on anyway. And ACCESS has recently been cut for single adults, which I am. Even if you qualify, it's about 16 years of paperwork and wait time. I just went to the clinic for free today in Minneapolis. Took me 5 minutes to register.

3. Who has lower crime? That's really all I need to say.

4. Who has a better education system? Again, no more is needed.

5. ...But related to education, I can go to the community college in Minneapolis for free, and I can't in AZ. Even if I was a resident.


All of these things would be true when comparing almost any red and blue state. There are acceptions. But generally, if you live in a blue state you're better off.
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I think crime number get skewed when comparing a place like Arizona to Minn.

Crooks can rob all year 'round in Arizona with the good weather, but in Minn, it is snowy much of the winter.

Crooks don't want to go rob when the snow is out.
 
VanceMack said:
And BTW...in case you missed it...places like Cuba, England, Canada...they have some awfully long waiting lines...some VERY dismal socialized healthcare, and are having to scale back services because they are taking the country en-masse into poverty.

More people working, preparing for their future, providing for themselves and the offspring they bring into the world. Less dependent leeches that drop out of high school and run to the free clinics to get labelled as 'disabled'. I guarantee you the system gets better.
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Canada:
YouTube - ‪SiCKO - Canadian Waiting Room Scene‬‏

Cuba:
YouTube - ‪SICKO: EN CUBA‬‏

America:
YouTube - ‪Video Shows Woman Dying on NY Hospital Floor‬‏
YouTube - ‪Sicko - The Emergency Room Visit‬‏
 
"That's odd. Seems like every country on earth with a higher standard of living, lower crime, better education, and more competitive society than ours disagrees with you." - MistressNomad

Do tell!

Exactly which nations would those be?
 
Government is not there to provide basic needs. That is where responsibility comes into play.
 
MistressNomad said:
Bringing that up is such a red harring. Whatever damage the economy may be doing, places with public health care still have better care for more people than we do.
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No they don't. There treat less, they have less doctors, and they take longer. The only reason in many of those countries that they don't die off is because they live pretty healthy lifestyles.
 
MistressNomad said:
People don't have to pay for education. You think education is more important than staying alive? You think medical care isn't a need?

My life shouldn't have a dollar symbol attached to it. We got rid of that when slavery ended.
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God, can your demonize anymore? Slavery? For paying for labor and services? Come on..
 
MistressNomad said:
If you don't like the care, go private. Because when it has to compete with public, the cost of private drops drastically. And when I say "drastically," I mean even the poor could probably afford at least what they need, completely out of pocket.
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With the presence of public schooling private schools get more expensive as they are seen as special, not the other way around. Why would it be different with medical care? It wouldn't, unless the government forced it too.
 
Henrin said:
No they don't. There treat less, they have less doctors, and they take longer. The only reason in many of those countries that they don't die off is because they live pretty healthy lifestyles.
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That's all American Capitalistic propaganda. Those video links are evidence of it. I've conversed with many Europeans over the years about their governments and it's nothing like the American propaganda suggests. After all, America is the best at everything and could learn nothing from anyone else. That's why our economy is in the shape it's it, yet some European countries have little or no debt at all. Is there one state, that is free of debt in the US?
 
empireofreason said:
That's all American Capitalistic propaganda. Those video links are evidence of it. I've conversed with many Europeans over the years about their governments and it's nothing like the American propaganda suggests. After all, America is the best at everything and could learn nothing from anyone else. That's why our economy is in the shape it's it, yet some European countries have little or no debt at all. Is there one state, that is free of debt in the US?
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What videos? The Micheal Moore propaganda videos?
 
empireofreason said:
You have words. No evidence. I have words, but evidence. Propaganda has no evidence.
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Are you kidding me? You say I used propaganda, but to argue this propaganda you point me to some videos, videos that just happen to be propaganda. Are you even understanding the basic idea that you can't fight propaganda with propaganda?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Not really.
The basics are easily provided by the lions share of people, for themselves.

Housing, basic comfortable housing is affordable.
Now if you're talking about living like "the Jones", no it's not affordable.

Food, definitely affordable.
Water is the same.

There is a popular but mostly untrue myth that everyone needs comprehensive medical care, as a basic need.
That is blatantly false.
The biggest gains in medical care have come from vaccines, that have prevented the most deadly diseases.
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Until someone dies of an infection :doh
 
xpiher said:
Until someone dies of an infection :doh
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They happen all the time though and a lot/most people don't die.

You guys take for granted that common medicines are a convenience and that most of the stuff that effects real life expectancy and health is easily affordable for 95%+ people.
 
empireofreason said:
You have words. No evidence. I have words, but evidence. Propaganda has no evidence.
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we need to keep at least one nation somewhat free of euro socialist idiocy
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
They happen all the time though and a lot/most people don't die.

You guys take for granted that common medicines are a convenience and that most of the stuff that effects real life expectancy and health is easily affordable for 95%+ people.
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Its not taking it for granted, its from living with debt caused by the system and seeing people who have died due to denial of care only because the person didn't have insurance and the hospital wouldn't do the operation/procedure without all of the money up front.
 
xpiher said:
Its not taking it for granted, its from living with debt caused by the system and seeing people who have died due to denial of care only because the person didn't have insurance and the hospital wouldn't do the operation/procedure without all of the money up front.
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Hospitals clearly take patients without insurance.

I've experienced this with a person this weekend.
So that isn't entirely true.
 
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