View Poll Results: Are Entitlement Neccessary?

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Thread: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

  1. #51
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course not, but when people misplace luxuries for needs, that is assumed to be right.
    When someone has to pay for one of the most important things to them, it's wrong?

    How much is your life worth to you? and how much are you willing to pay for it?
    Realistic folks can probably pretty accurately guess the percentage of people we place in mental health facilities that 'cant afford insurance' that have cellphones and cable TV. And smoke. And drink.

    Priorities are a funny thing. Most people find a way to pay for what is really important to them, misguided 'needs' though they may be.

  2. #52
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course not, but when people misplace luxuries for needs, that is assumed to be right.
    When someone has to pay for one of the most important things to them, it's wrong?

    How much is your life worth to you? and how much are you willing to pay for it?
    People don't have to pay for education. You think education is more important than staying alive? You think medical care isn't a need?

    My life shouldn't have a dollar symbol attached to it. We got rid of that when slavery ended.

  3. #53
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    People don't have to pay for education. You think education is more important than staying alive? You think medical care isn't a need?

    My life shouldn't have a dollar symbol attached to it. We got rid of that when slavery ended.
    Price is just the most efficient form of rationing we have.
    That's it for us.

    Top down doesn't work, there is no immediate signals to make it work.
    Life does have a $ attached to it whether we like it or not.
    If we nationalize medical care, the government will put a ceiling on what they will pay for to treat you.
    Betcha $100.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  4. #54
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Price is just the most efficient form of rationing we have.
    That's it for us.

    Top down doesn't work, there is no immediate signals to make it work.
    Life does have a $ attached to it whether we like it or not.
    If we nationalize medical care, the government will put a ceiling on what they will pay for to treat you.
    Betcha $100.
    If you don't like the care, go private. Because when it has to compete with public, the cost of private drops drastically. And when I say "drastically," I mean even the poor could probably afford at least what they need, completely out of pocket.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    When it comes to healthcare I know that we can reform our system to make things much cheaper while providing superior care to what we have now. I may make a thread about it later when I have time.
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

  6. #56
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    History proves you wrong. Pure capitalism never works. You wind up with a giant poor caste and not much else. Monopolies can and do take over - the market doesn't control them. Societies with a socialist aspect just do better. Better education, longer lives, higher standard of living, more competitive, lower crime, etc. And there's a sweet spot of socialist qualities that seem to work best. We're shy of it. Some countries overdo it.

    We have the worst care, most people dying of lack of access to care, and the most expensive care in the developed world and you think it's fine? We also have the shortest life expectancy,

    Yeah, RICH people fly in. Rich people are all you care about, aren't they? Yes, enough money will buy you some medical attention. But if you don't have money, you get the bottom of the barrel.
    Geeezus. Seriously? Rich people is all they care about. Except of course...they sure do have a lot of free resources in YOUR state. And Many others. In fact...get away from all the socialist 'free' healthcare talking points and BS and point me to a state that DOESNT have those resources. And BTW...in case you missed it...places like Cuba, England, Canada...they have some awfully long waiting lines...some VERY dismal socialized healthcare, and are having to scale back services because they are taking the country en-masse into poverty.

    More people working, preparing for their future, providing for themselves and the offspring they bring into the world. Less dependent leeches that drop out of high school and run to the free clinics to get labelled as 'disabled'. I guarantee you the system gets better.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Geeezus. Seriously? Rich people is all they care about. Except of course...they sure do have a lot of free resources in YOUR state. And Many others. In fact...get away from all the socialist 'free' healthcare talking points and BS and point me to a state that DOESNT have those resources. And BTW...in case you missed it...places like Cuba, England, Canada...they have some awfully long waiting lines...some VERY dismal socialized healthcare, and are having to scale back services because they are taking the country en-masse into poverty.

    More people working, preparing for their future, providing for themselves and the offspring they bring into the world. Less dependent leeches that drop out of high school and run to the free clinics to get labelled as 'disabled'. I guarantee you the system gets better.
    Yes, we do. A state with tons of public programs and generous entitlements, that receives one of the lowest returns on our federal taxes of anywhere in the nation. Have I mentioned I'm going to school for free? Or that finding jobs is relatively easy here, compared to anywhere else I've been in the country in the last couple years? Or that we also have great schools and low crime? Yeah, socialistic societies fail so hard.

    Like ER's here don't have long waiting lines? As though waiting is worse than dying from not being able to get treatment at all?

    Bringing that up is such a red harring. Whatever damage the economy may be doing, places with public health care still have better care for more people than we do. Every now and then I see a Brit or a Canadian pop up in these threads and say "Seriously guys, things are pretty good here. I got an appointment in 3 days just the other week. What is with all this talk of things collapsing? Not seeing it here in reality."

    You act as though laziness is the main problem. Shows how many poor people you talk to.
    Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 05-29-11 at 03:18 AM.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    What do you think? Are basic entitlements necessary? if yes, what conditions would you apply to make those entitlement fair? If not, how can you justify allowing poverty and crime that will ensue?
    How about a "birth permit"? If the country provides you with resources wouldn't it be fair to ask whether you can or cannot create another US citizen or citizens?

  9. #59
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    California is a uniquely mis-managed state. I think everyone agrees on that. But here's a question: would you rather live in Arizona or Minnesota? Having just moved from Arizona to Minnesota, I can tell you there are a few things I notice immediately, back on the job hunt and having a lapse in insurance.

    1. The economy here is way better. While it may be true that living is cheaper in AZ, it's only by a bit, and there are no jobs, and the ones there are pay less money, and the cost of living is not significantly cheaper to bridge the gap. Minnesota has more jobs, that pay better, sufficiently to bridge the gap in higher cost of living which really isn't that much higher. In fact, I can get a studio in Minneapolis for less than I was paying in AZ.

    2. There are fewer resources in AZ. ACCESS (a low-income health option) is basically inaccessible unless you work for min wage part-time (if you're unemployed you don't qualify, and if you make $1300-ish a year you don't qualify), which you can't live on anyway. And ACCESS has recently been cut for single adults, which I am. Even if you qualify, it's about 16 years of paperwork and wait time. I just went to the clinic for free today in Minneapolis. Took me 5 minutes to register.

    3. Who has lower crime? That's really all I need to say.

    4. Who has a better education system? Again, no more is needed.

    5. ...But related to education, I can go to the community college in Minneapolis for free, and I can't in AZ. Even if I was a resident.


    All of these things would be true when comparing almost any red and blue state. There are acceptions. But generally, if you live in a blue state you're better off.
    I think crime number get skewed when comparing a place like Arizona to Minn.

    Crooks can rob all year 'round in Arizona with the good weather, but in Minn, it is snowy much of the winter.

    Crooks don't want to go rob when the snow is out.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    And BTW...in case you missed it...places like Cuba, England, Canada...they have some awfully long waiting lines...some VERY dismal socialized healthcare, and are having to scale back services because they are taking the country en-masse into poverty.

    More people working, preparing for their future, providing for themselves and the offspring they bring into the world. Less dependent leeches that drop out of high school and run to the free clinics to get labelled as 'disabled'. I guarantee you the system gets better.
    Canada:
    YouTube - ‪SiCKO - Canadian Waiting Room Scene‬‏

    Cuba:
    YouTube - ‪SICKO: EN CUBA‬‏

    America:
    YouTube - ‪Video Shows Woman Dying on NY Hospital Floor‬‏
    YouTube - ‪Sicko - The Emergency Room Visit‬‏

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