View Poll Results: Are Entitlement Neccessary?

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    20 50.00%
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Thread: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

  1. #31
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    digsbe

    On average? Yup. More blue states getting less money back than they paid, and more red states getting more than they paid. Please note Minnesota gets some of the lowest return on its federal taxes.

    Pretty graph
    Federal Taxes paid/received for each State

    EconoMonitor, with less pretty graph
    EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor Red States, Blue States and the Distribution of Federal Spending

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    And if you go to the ER with one of these ailments, they will treat you and save your life whether you have insurance or not.
    ...And then plunge me into a few thousand dollars of debt for having the audacity to get sick? Lovely.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    While I have no problem with a system whereby the needy are temporarily helped when they fall and put back on the road to self-sufficiency, it should be a very short-term solution and those who are capable but refuse to work should be forced out of the system to their own self-chosen end. Helping the needy is one thing. Supporting them for the rest of their lives is another.
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    It's not that simple. What I would have died from was a large cyst that required surgery. Pretty minor surgery, and actually not a big deal... if you have medical care. If I didn't, I would have been dead in a month.

    In other words, I never would have made it to adulthood without comprehensive medical care. And I'm a healthy person.

    The same is true of anyone who's ever have appendicitis, asthma, severe allergies, or even a cavity. All of these are common, and can result in death if left untreated.
    Regardless of your ability to pay, public (not private) hospitals are REQUIRED BY LAW to treat you. Had you gone to an ER you would likely have been examined, treated, and given an exceptionally discounted bill for services (in many cases if you can pay cash you pay the equivalent of a co-pay).

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Those countries sound like a better place for progressives than the mean, nasty, capitalist US, wouldn't you agree?
    Yes. If you've done your homework. And, it citizenship weren't such an issue, then many of use be over there working, living under a more mature, hardship tested, and advanced system. America got it's gains not primarily from it's constitutional attitude, but instead from geographical positioning and political events occurring elsewhere. If were weren't an ocean, oil under our soil, and Europe killing each other, meeting a technologically less advanced native culture, things would have fared much different. I believe the squandering of the advances and outstanding head start is proof it's not our attitude that made what we are today, we have to fix our erroneous attitude, before we loose it all.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Regardless of your ability to pay, public (not private) hospitals are REQUIRED BY LAW to treat you. Had you gone to an ER you would likely have been examined, treated, and given an exceptionally discounted bill for services (in many cases if you can pay cash you pay the equivalent of a co-pay).
    What about if you require follow-up? Also, why should I have to wait to get treatment until it's a desperate situation? The amount of collateral damage that can cause can result in health problems for the rest of your life when earlier non-emergency treatment would have prevented it.

    With the number of people in this country who die every year from lack of treatment, or wind up in hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical debt, it's really not that simple.

  7. #37
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    Before "the system" arrived that makes us First World, we could always chop down a few trees and make a house. We could plant some corn and potatoes and feed the chickens. Take a few things into town and trade. This easily implemented self-responsibility cannot be done today. We are at the mercy of a system and a dollar bill. If there is no job available, we cannot get this dollar bill. It's not like you can just ignore the system, go chop some trees down or start planting food again like we used to.

    I say yes. Without entitlements, we are not exploiting our full potentiality as a nation.

    Can we rely upon business to create all the jobs? I don't think so, because business interests are too narrow.

    Is it up to the individual to create their own business? No. Nature created many more followers than leaders. Many people just weren't made to create business and need to be just brought aboard to do things.

    This leaves the government with the responsibility to bridge the gap.

    What if the jobs don't exist? Are the people without jobs entitled to housing, food and health care?

    If you don't keep a person sheltered, fed and with basic health care, you cannot expect them to be prepared for work.

    I think the government has a responsibility to shelter, feed and provide health care for it's citizens with one caveat, the person getting the entitlement except the work from the government if they do not find work on their own.

    The work should not exceed the value of the entitlement relative to the market worth. If it shown the person does not cooperate (ruling out mental illness) a bit of structure that doesn't penalize the tax payer is in order: a barb wire, rubber bullet, work camp would be a short-term alternative until cooperation is met. Presently, the government does not do this, I'd like to see this done.

    What do you think? Are basic entitlements necessary? if yes, what conditions would you apply to make those entitlement fair? If not, how can you justify allowing poverty and crime that will ensue?
    This isn't entirely true. My grandparents grew most of their food, the only thing they had to buy was milk and meat. Which, they could get if it ever came down to it.
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    While I have no problem with a system whereby the needy are temporarily helped when they fall and put back on the road to self-sufficiency, it should be a very short-term solution and those who are capable but refuse to work should be forced out of the system to their own self-chosen end. Helping the needy is one thing. Supporting them for the rest of their lives is another.
    This is about entitlements. Of course of people who don't want to work and don't ask for an entitlement force themselves out the of system. This is not a problem, It's rather those who seek entitlements that are the concern. The government would ask them to work for those entitlements.

    As far as support for their rest of their lives, as far as I know no has that argument here, unless they are elderly. Everyone's seems to think it's okay to have those who receive entitlements do some work, including the disabled where they can help.

    The rich are lucky the oil wells don't have the ability to talk, because they've taken credit for most of the work done in our world. Just because you take oil out the ground doesn't mean you really own what work it does. Try to push your 4000lb auto to work next week. That energy should be shared by all those in your country, not hoarded by luxurious spending during economic bad times, leaving fellow citizens in squalor. It's like one man taking credit for a concrete and steel tower built down town or an entire apartment complex. One man could never do this work, but in our world we can pretend he can take ownership implying he did. If entitlements cut in on the rich or even moderately wealthy, who cares. They take far too much credit for what they say they have earned.
    Last edited by empireofreason; 05-28-11 at 10:29 PM.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    This isn't entirely true. My grandparents grew most of their food, the only thing they had to buy was milk and meat. Which, they could get if it ever came down to it.
    The analogy was meant to point out that human responsiblity and survival had a more direct relationship when it was with the land vs a first world system. A perfect anthropological example was never my intent.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MistressNomad View Post
    What about if you require follow-up? Also, why should I have to wait to get treatment until it's a desperate situation? The amount of collateral damage that can cause can result in health problems for the rest of your life when earlier non-emergency treatment would have prevented it.

    With the number of people in this country who die every year from lack of treatment, or wind up in hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical debt, it's really not that simple.
    If you require follow up you go back to the ER...just like hundreds of thousands of people do every year. It IS that simple. Additionally, every county that I know of has a contract medicare/medficaid service provider and an unfinded clinic. You miught be amazed what is already out there for you. There us a website maintained by the United Way (and Im pretty sure it covers every state)...go to 2-1-1 Call Center Search and see if there arent services in your local area.

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