View Poll Results: Are Entitlement Neccessary?

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  • Yes

    20 50.00%
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    14 35.00%
  • Sometimes.

    5 12.50%
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Thread: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

  1. #111
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    Where is the evidence to support this claim? I've herd it many time, never been prover to be true. Also, in my experience, the charity is through religious organization with the desired result to win converts. Thats not altruism.
    If you don't like the answer change the assumptions and the definitions.

    I spent five minutes with Google:

    Dataset of the Day: Who is more Generous? Republicans or Democrats?

    "So are liberals stingier than conservatives?. The data has suggested that they are. One thing that I am unhappy with is that this data is somewhat dated with the most recent year being in 2004 for philanthropy stats from the Catalogue of Philanthropy. I am anxious to see if the trend has continued into the present and am eager to compare 2008 charity figures with red and blue states from the 2008 Presidential Election.

    Overall, I like how Kristof does not see the data as a negative, but a way to encourage more of his fellow liberals to contribute more. He states in his article, 'Come on liberals, redeem yourselves, and put your wallets where your hearts are.'

    There were lots more. Perhaps if we read them all we could draw better conclusions. This is a start.

  2. #112
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    I think people should be more charitable, I don't think they should be forced to be charitable, but I don't think leaving someone to die because people are selfish is right either
    You cannot force someone to be charitable; once force is involved it ceases to be charity and becomes involuntary servitude.

  3. #113
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Nobody should starve or stay without shelter or medical treatment.
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  4. #114
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Nobody should starve or stay without shelter or medical treatment.
    Then by all means - support these people, either directly, or through donations to charity.

  5. #115
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron View Post
    Yes. Let the food places and any stores that sale food feed the hungry rather than dumping the food and other items in the trash. What is wrong with that? We are a wasteful nation and do not have to be. - Kali

    I get it but there is always a cost associated with such efforts. Who is going to pay that cost?

    As I said we need new jobs here at home so this would create new jobs or instead of hiring new folks just have the people that have to keep track off all this stuff and toss it in garbage bins? Have them hand it out to the pooor and hungry. - Kali

    Im not sure how it creates jobs but I can certainly see how it can add to a persons already existing job. So these people should be paid more, yes? Are you willing to pay more for your groceries as Kroger to support such an activity because somebody has to foot-the-bill.
    Don't you think if the gov would support such actions it may cut down on the need of welfare? Also how much more can it cost to hand out stuff you are gonna have to use manpower to throw away? Hell I am sure people like me would be willing to volunteer to do it for free which means they would not have to pay for my labor or hours.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Baron View Post
    Yea, I've seen this before and some similar ones. Charities are wonderful and operate at thier own expense and at the expense of those who choose to donate.

    But she had mentioned passings laws and such...so how far does she think the governmnet should go to force such "charity", I wonder...
    We could start out with a test to see which companies would do the right thing on their own before even having to get the gov involved. Don't you think most companies would jump at the chance to do this and create a good self image? Which company would you support and shop at? The ones who were trying to feed and help the hungry or the ones that said No Thanks? I know where my money and praise would go to
    ~Following My Own Flow~

  7. #117
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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    This is an interesting thread.

    I have a friend who is a slaveowner. He is a nice enough guy but he says he just cannot live without his slaves. He needs their labor to make his life bearable. I know this because I am one of his slaves. I work two days most weeks for his benefit. Some weeks I have to work three days for his benefit. He tells me I should be very happy that I am allowed to keep any of the wealth I create.

    His needs are unlimited. He needs food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and education. He does not need a job. That is what I am for. I work. He benefits. To his credit he truthfully tells me that anyone can become a slaveholder like him and lead a life with plenty of time to get very, very good at World of Warcraft. While I am working as his slave, he plays. Fortunately he seldom gloats about it. He tells me all that I need to do is stop working. There are still plenty of slaves out there so anyone who wants to can live a life of leisure.
    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I noted that the very idea that businesses create jobs was lightly dismissed in the first few posts.
    Businesses can create jobs. However, many jobs, especially a number of higher-paying jobs, have been 'outsourced', contributing to poverty and unemployment. Also, there is virtually no connection between job growth and company profits. i can cite dozens of instances where companies laid off thousands of employees while raking in record-breaking profits. The trickle-down effect is a myth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    This is the crux of our problems. Many of you are Marxists, socialists, or some other "ist". More and more I realize that the labels don't work. Ronald Reagan used the term "statist." I am beginning to like the term statist. I will explain statism in some later post.
    Ronald Reagan was a Statist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Here are some things I believe:

    o Nations do not become great nor prosperous due to government spending
    Except when they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    o The federal government is spending nearly twice as much as it takes from taxpayers
    That's probably accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    o About one-half of the people in the US do not pay federal income taxes
    That's probably accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    o Governments do not create wealth. Government consume wealth

    o Government jobs do not create wealth. Government jobs consume wealth
    They do both. In times of crisis, or if private companies simply refuse to hire American workers, or whatever, the state becomes the employer of last resort. The government does pay these people's salaries, but those people spend that income, and the businesses from which they purchase goods and services benefit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    o The United States Constitution is not a Marxist document
    I don't recall anybody claiming that it was, especially because, when it was written, Karl Marx hadn't even been born, yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    - There are no provisions to take wealth from one individual to give it to another
    The government is allowed to tax it's citizens, according to the Constitution. The Constitution really doesn't dictate how that money can be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    - "From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs", is not found in the US Constitution.
    First; Again, he wasn't even born, yet.

    Second; it probably should be. I'm not a Marxist, but that's one of the points in which I'm in total agreement. Also, I'd estimate the majority of the American people would agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    No one is entitled to any good or service. Ever.
    Like the Dude said; Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Myself, the United Nations Human Rights Council, and a couple billion others disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    To believe so has always led to tyranny.
    This is untrue, and it's a non-sequitor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    My daughter has a socialist friend. She believes I should pay for her education because she wants one and I am "rich". "From each according to his abilities..." And she wants an education. "To each according to his needs."
    She wants you, personally, to pay for her education? Unless you've been stepping out, I see no reason why should have to shoulder that responsibility, yourself. However, there's no legitimate reason why some small percentage of your taxes shouldn't go towards educating our young people. It's more productive than spending it on bombs.

    Consider the words of Thomas Jefferson;

    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

    ". . . whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that, whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them right."

    "Only popular government can safeguard democracy. . . . Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories. And to render them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree. . . "

    "...the children of the poor must be thus educated at common expense."


    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Many of you believe I should pay for your health care. It is nonsense. You do not have the right to make me your slave, even if you really, really want something.
    Comparing nationalized healthcare and slavery is asinine. Also, Single-Payer healthcare has been supported by a clear majority of the American public for decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    One of you said that some European nations have no debt. This is false. The very best case is Luxembourg which has a debt to GDP ratio of about 18%. Most are so bad they describe it as a debt crisis.

    That is enough for now. Thanks for reading.
    Virtually every nation has a certain amount of debt. However, for just one example, if we compare what these nations spend, we notice that the rest of the industrialized world, adjusted for population, spends around half of what we do, and the cover almost everybody. A number of them also have better outcomes. Adopting Single-Payer healthcare would be the best thing we could do for our economy, and, y'know, the American people. Incidentally.
    Economic Left/Right: -7.25, Authoritarian/Libertarian:-7.13
    All over the place, from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume. -Noam Chomsky

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Nobody should starve or stay without shelter or medical treatment.
    Therefore, what?

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by xpiher View Post
    . . . in my experience, the charity is through religious organization with the desired result to win converts. Thats not altruism.
    So now not only do you want to have goods and services provided to you, you also want to make sure the one who gives the gift does so with right motives? Awesome.

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    Re: Basic Shelter/Food/Medical Entitlements Neccessary in First World Governments?

    Quote Originally Posted by empireofreason View Post
    It would be interesting to see a full public audit, from top to bottom of pharmaceutical companies. How much money is spent on research, how much profit they make, advertisements, what kinds of research they are doing, the entire money flow process. The justification is for reasons like you mentioned.
    It would be interesting to see just how you spend your money. So let's have a full audit. How much money is spent on adult entertainment? How much do you earn? How much did you spend on luxury clothing? If it is good for a company of your choosing why shouldn't it apply equally to you?

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