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Post Truth Politics

ashurbanipal said:
True, but periods of intense dislike of truth usually forebode difficult times for a nation. We seem to be entering one of those times right now. What's interesting about this instance is that the country is roughly evenly divided, and each side appreciates about 1/2 of the total truth. The next four years are going to be a masterpiece of historic intrigue and narrative.
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Are we, half of the country did not bother to vote, so I doubt we know what they believe is truth.
 
Casper said:
Are we, half of the country did not bother to vote, so I doubt we know what they believe is truth.
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Good point, though I suspect were everyone to vote, it'd go about the same way. It's not just the vote; plenty of polls have shown the even split for quite a while.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Good point, though I suspect were everyone to vote, it'd go about the same way. It's not just the vote; plenty of polls have shown the even split for quite a while.
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Still listening to polls, good grief. Stop
 
Casper said:
Still listening to polls, good grief. Stop
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"The race is not always to the swiftest nor the contest to the strongest...but that's the way to bet."

-Lazarus Long-

Polls are (obviously) sometimes wrong. But I'm talking about 20-odd years of polls (I've been watching this phenomenon a long time). Information compiled over that long a period can be mistaken...but that's not the way to bet.
 
gunner said:
2016 will go down in history as the death of meaningful political terms. Terms that have substance and meaning are no longer en vogue and have been supplanted with an era of post truth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-truth_politics
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Worthwhile discussion to have I think.

Having read the article, those on my side will immediately see rather intentional bias as almost all the specific identifiers if you read the additional link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance make it seem as if the side with the most bias is in possession of the "real facts" and that an attempt by the media to achieve a "false balance" by presenting news in a balanced manner gives far more credence to the side, which to the author of this article's mind, is simply and provably incorrect.

"Many news outlets are bound by rules to ensure impartiality. In some cases, this leads to false balance where minority viewpoints are given undue emphasis and exaggerations or lies told during political campaigns are not adequately challenged"

What we now understand, and many of us highly suspected even previous to the very telling WikiLeaks disclosures, is that instead of a false balance where media went out of its way to present both sides equally [ what a laugh ], instead we find there was actual collusion by major media sources which, instead of reporting the news fair and accurately, took sides and behind the scenes manipulated, assisted and did almost everything they could in order to sink the campaign of the person to whom they, as individuals and as a general co-hort group, were vehemently opposed.

This is absolutely undeniable, though so many are still in their dream world and ARE actually denying it... and was felt by the electorate as to be such an underlying truth that they rejected the beyond deeply flawed candidate who they were, by this flawed media, being forced fed. Even the New York Times understands it was way off base, that it was not attempting to report news/truth as it ignored and failed to report accurately.

Few will now trust the old stand by "news" sources, polling sources, fact checking sources... for the very fact that they showed themselves to be, at minimum, wrong...with the reality probably far worse in that untruths were cradled and propped up by folks left leaning.

Many of us picked up on this false narrative that almost all the major news organizations were putting out when they minimized the WikiLeaks disclosures, when they accepted, grasping, clawing like a drowning victim, at any potential item, false, suspect or not, that could be put out to hurt the Trump campaign... we saw the huge over venue capacity crowds Trump was drawing vs having a hard filling a high school gym on the other side. The incorrect, and seemingly intentionally wrong being used to influence instead of reflect truth, polling after Brexit gave watchers cause to pause and reflect just how far off, as we now are certain, those polls just might be.

That and the fact that what we were being told were lies, that when we glanced even briefly under the covers, we saw what was far more probably true. Our country has been swindled, jobs moved out at American worker expense due to collusion of Big Government and Big Business, our trade deficits belie this ... The fact that we were being told that we should entrust our national security to a very incompetent and very careless, or more probably crooked, caretaker at the gates, to become our leader to the rest of a quickly, many time directly attributable to her errors, more frightening world.

One could go on and on down this lane, but that is a sufficient amount of targets for any on the opposing side to take a shot. Please, do really take aim and at least try to hit the side of the barn however, if you do make the attempt...as I truly tire of all the one liner supposed "wisdom" and will ignore any that try that, just telling you up front.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Worthwhile discussion to have I think.

Having read the article, those on my side will immediately see rather intentional bias as almost all the specific identifiers if you read the additional link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance make it seem as if the side with the most bias is in possession of the "real facts" and that an attempt by the media to achieve a "false balance" by presenting news in a balanced manner gives far more credence to the side, which to the author of this article's mind, is simply and provably incorrect.

"Many news outlets are bound by rules to ensure impartiality. In some cases, this leads to false balance where minority viewpoints are given undue emphasis and exaggerations or lies told during political campaigns are not adequately challenged"

What we now understand, and many of us highly suspected even previous to the very telling WikiLeaks disclosures, is that instead of a false balance where media went out of its way to present both sides equally [ what a laugh ], instead we find there was actual collusion by major media sources which, instead of reporting the news fair and accurately, took sides and behind the scenes manipulated, assisted and did almost everything they could in order to sink the campaign of the person to whom they, as individuals and as a general co-hort group, were vehemently opposed.

This is absolutely undeniable, though so many are still in their dream world and ARE actually denying it... and was felt by the electorate as to be such an underlying truth that they rejected the beyond deeply flawed candidate who they were, by this flawed media, being forced fed. Even the New York Times understands it was way off base, that it was not attempting to report news/truth as it ignored and failed to report accurately.

Few will now trust the old stand by "news" sources, polling sources, fact checking sources... for the very fact that they showed themselves to be, at minimum, wrong...with the reality probably far worse in that untruths were cradled and propped up by folks left leaning.

Many of us picked up on this false narrative that almost all the major news organizations were putting out when they minimized the WikiLeaks disclosures, when they accepted, grasping, clawing like a drowning victim, at any potential item, false, suspect or not, that could be put out to hurt the Trump campaign... we saw the huge over venue capacity crowds Trump was drawing vs having a hard filling a high school gym on the other side. The incorrect, and seemingly intentionally wrong being used to influence instead of reflect truth, polling after Brexit gave watchers cause to pause and reflect just how far off, as we now are certain, those polls just might be.

That and the fact that what we were being told were lies, that when we glanced even briefly under the covers, we saw what was far more probably true. Our country has been swindled, jobs moved out at American worker expense due to collusion of Big Government and Big Business, our trade deficits belie this ... The fact that we were being told that we should entrust our national security to a very incompetent and very careless, or more probably crooked, caretaker at the gates, to become our leader to the rest of a quickly, many time directly attributable to her errors, more frightening world.

One could go on and on down this lane, but that is a sufficient amount of targets for any on the opposing side to take a shot. Please, do really take aim and at least try to hit the side of the barn however, if you do make the attempt...as I truly tire of all the one liner supposed "wisdom" and will ignore any that try that, just telling you up front.
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This entire post is a brilliant illustration of post-truth politics. Bravo!
 
CrabCake said:
This entire post is a brilliant illustration of post-truth politics. Bravo!
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Yeah, right.

Yours, however, is just another example of the lazy "progressive" post that not only has NO truth, none, it simply lacks any degree of anything. Its worse than useless.

What don't you get off your damned ass and say something worthwhile? Or, damn it all, at least TRY. Good lord I am so sick of this mealy mouthed crap y'all flush on the rest of us here.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Yeah, right.

Yours, however, is just another example of the lazy "progressive" post that not only has NO truth, none, it simply lacks any degree of anything. Its worse than useless.

What don't you get off your damned ass and say something worthwhile? Or, damn it all, at least TRY. Good lord I am so sick of this mealy mouthed crap y'all flush on the rest of us here.
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Yeah, just tell yourself that.
 
CrabCake said:
Yeah, just tell yourself that.
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Cannot be coaxed, cajoled, pushed, prodded or in any manner induced to actually debate, eh? Why come to a debate site and refuse?

Oh, my bad, progressives are not required, just smear and be gone, I forgot. That is just soooOOOooo damned persuasive. And, addressing the OP, pre and post and currently un truthful.

Good luck with all that.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Cannot be coaxed, cajoled, pushed, prodded or in any manner induced to actually debate, eh? Why come to a debate site and refuse?

Oh, my bad, progressives are not required, just smear and be gone, I forgot. That is just soooOOOooo damned persuasive. And, addressing the OP, pre and post and currently un truthful.

Good luck with all that.
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It could be debated but, pretty much from your first post it is clear that all you have really wanted to do is use this as a cudgel for an anti-left agenda.

I find it a bit rich that you berate other people for not wanting to enter into that tired old bullcrap scenario with you. Do you want to debate post truth or just have a re-run of the latest US presidential race debate?
 
William Rea said:
It could be debated but, pretty much from your first post it is clear that all you have really wanted to do is use this as a cudgel for an anti-left agenda.

I find it a bit rich that you berate other people for not wanting to enter into that tired old bullcrap scenario with you. Do you want to debate post truth or just have a re-run of the latest US presidential race debate?
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WaAhhh, waaah, wah...

You see, I have presented proofs laid bare in this last, painful for the liars and attempted intimidators [read: the left], election. An election that, if you even looked in Trump's direction before about 8 PM election day, much less stated he might or would win, you were literally laughed at.

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. How is that pudding tasting now, by the way?
 
joG said:
I do not remember it that way. Governments from all around the world supported the measures taken. There were two open letters of support by 18 (if I recall the number correctly) of the EU member governments, the head of government of Singapur wrote an urgent article in a foreign policy journal in support. The case was more that there was "nigh-worldwide" support. That is not to say that Bush had not been outsmarted by Putin in the negotiations and Bush could have avoided being placed in a situation, where the best way out was invasion. But it would be wrong to think that he lacked support.
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Yes, and while Tony Blair (despite the Downing Street Memo) and other government leaders were falling in line behind Dubya, millions of Brits and Europeans were in the street objecting to the war.

Point: government leaders frequently DO NOT REPRESENT their constituents thoughts and wishes. Just like in the US.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Yes, and while Tony Blair (despite the Downing Street Memo) and other government leaders were falling in line behind Dubya, millions of Brits and Europeans were in the street objecting to the war.

Point: government leaders frequently DO NOT REPRESENT their constituents thoughts and wishes. Just like in the US.
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You would expect knee jerk reflexes from the street.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
You proved it... I wrote probably nearing the character limit, a good page worth, and you "debated" that with what? Nothing.

You are familiar with the definition of nothing, correct?
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Have a happy thanksgiving day.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
WaAhhh, waaah, wah...

You see, I have presented proofs laid bare in this last, painful for the liars and attempted intimidators [read: the left], election. An election that, if you even looked in Trump's direction before about 8 PM election day, much less stated he might or would win, you were literally laughed at.

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. How is that pudding tasting now, by the way?
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. <---- See that dot, I care less than that about your election. It was a reality TV show that provided us a few laughs through the long Autumn months.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Thanks... see, I gave you thanks, that is real thanks giving, ah ha ha ha.

I am in Medellin, Colombia and they don't celebrate it like we do, so I had chicken instead.
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I am also not celebrating this year as I am not in the country either. I can still give thanks though.
 
William Rea said:
. <---- See that dot, I care less than that about your election. It was a reality TV show that provided us a few laughs through the long Autumn months.
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See these dots [ ] ? No? Well, even lumped together they are still far more than I care about your level of caring. The fact is the liars got caught lying this election cycle, simple as that.

That btw, is not truth nor post truth, that is just the age old lie.
 
CrabCake said:
I am also not celebrating this year as I am not in the country either. I can still give thanks though.
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As do I, but its everyday. I learned a long time ago if I were to be happy I need appreciate what I do have. As an American, I have plenty.

I won the world lotto on that point. And I am for keeping it that way.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
See these dots [ ] ? No? Well, even lumped together they are still far more than I care about your level of caring. The fact is the liars got caught lying this election cycle, simple as that.

That btw, is not truth nor post truth, that is just the age old lie.
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The OP was talking about the concept of 'Post Truth politics' in the Philosophical forum section and you have attempted to weave some banal hack Triumpalism that will most likely be short lived for many and a source of apologetics for the hardcore hacks over the next 8 years. I am not looking forward to being bored ****less by that on here for the next 8 years.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
As do I, but its everyday. I learned a long time ago if I were to be happy I need appreciate what I do have. As an American, I have plenty.

I won the world lotto on that point. And I am for keeping it that way.
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You came second, the English won the jackpot.
 
joG said:
You would expect knee jerk reflexes from the street.
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Yes, all that talk about "democratic principles" are total bull****, I agree completely. Screw the average citizen, protect our oligarchs and greedy leaders.
 
Thoreau72 said:
Yes, all that talk about "democratic principles" are total bull****, I agree completely. Screw the average citizen, protect our oligarchs and greedy leaders.
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I'm so glad you've found out, what turns you on. Enjoy.
 
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