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Atheism vs Agnosticism

FreedomFromAll said:
if you actually tried to explain yourself rather than just repeating crap that you read somewhere over and over; I wouldnt think of your position as a pile a faith in in your position.
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See#47
 
Quag said:
You like banging your head on a brick wall I see
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Russell797 said:
Any imagined god, by any name, represents appeal to the supernatural. The supernatural by definition does not exists in nature. If it does not exist in nature then we can not know it.

If we can't know it then there is no reason to believe in it. Any of it.
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never studied logic I see.
 
RAMOSS said:
When you look at how it is defined , and how it is used in that rather bigt of a fluff piece, it is saying absolutely NOTHING about answering the question 'What is SPIRIT'. It avoids and deflects the issue, rather than confront it.
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You are not familiar with what my guess is most people's picture when they are visualizing their conception of a person's spirit. You've never seen Ghost with Demi Moore? And the real fluff is your very poor logic that because current mortal knowledge does not know how to resurrect that it is not possible, especially for an eternal intelligence.
 
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FreedomFromAll said:
if you actually tried to explain yourself rather than just repeating crap that you read somewhere over and over; I wouldnt think of your position as a pile a faith in in your position.
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I do NOT know if gods exist or not.

YOU do NOT know either.

But I am ethical enough to acknowledge that I do not know...and you want to pretend you DO.

Play with that as much as you want. There is an amount of fun derived in watching you flail about.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do NOT know if gods exist or not.

YOU do NOT know either.

But I am ethical enough to acknowledge that I do not know...and you want to pretend you DO.

Play with that as much as you want. There is an amount of fun derived in watching you flail about.
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I already explained it to you. But you were too dogmatic to listen. That and too busy trolling.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
I already explained it to you. But you were too dogmatic to listen. That and too busy trolling.
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I do not troll.

I am explaining that I do not know if there are gods or not.

You are asserting that you do.

I am laughing at that assertion...and, I guess, at you.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do NOT know if gods exist or not.

YOU do NOT know either.

But I am ethical enough to acknowledge that I do not know...and you want to pretend you DO.

Play with that as much as you want. There is an amount of fun derived in watching you flail about.
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No one "knows" if there are gods or not. It's not knowable. But, it can be reasoned that there are or are not gods, depending on the person's views on the matter.

I reason there are no gods. Logicman and others reason that there is God. You reason that there is a possibility of gods. I imagine FFA reasons there is not.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I am an agnostic. I am NOT an atheist.
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I am an agnostic atheist. I can't know if there is a god or not therefore agnostic. I don't believe in things I can't know therefore atheist. If the day ever comes when I am presented with solid evidence that there may in fact be a god then I would drop the atheist part.
 
Fearandloathing said:
never studied logic I see.
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Please do explain?

Any imagined god, by any name, represents appeal to the supernatural. True?

The supernatural by definition does not exists in nature. True?

If it does not exist in nature then we can not know it. True?

If we can't know it then there is no reason to believe in it. Any of it. True?

The only way to conclude something exists for which you have no evidence in nature is to think irrationally. That's why it's called faith. An irrational faith at that.
 
calamity said:
No one "knows" if there are gods or not. It's not knowable. But, it can be reasoned that there are or are not gods, depending on the person's views on the matter.

I reason there are no gods. Logicman and others reason that there is God. You reason that there is a possibility of gods. I imagine FFA reasons there is not.
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It is poor logic to say no one knows if God exists just because it is outside your own knowledge. The scriptures state that the only people who know are those that God reveals Himself to because of their faith.
 
laska said:
It is poor logic to say no one knows if God exists just because it is outside your own knowledge. The scriptures state that the only people who know are those that God reveals Himself to because of their faith.
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Nonsense. Even if god supposedly reveals himself, they really do not know if they are just imagining it or deluding themselves. No one knows. It's unknowable.

Irony Award of the Month nomination though for faulting my logic on this. Kudos!
 
calamity said:
No one "knows" if there are gods or not. It's not knowable. But, it can be reasoned that there are or are not gods, depending on the person's views on the matter.

I reason there are no gods. Logicman and others reason that there is God. You reason that there is a possibility of gods. I imagine FFA reasons there is not.
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The people here who are saying "there are no gods"...are blindly guessing that there are no gods.

If you are saying there are no gods...you are blindly guessing that there are no gods.

One CANNOT get to "there are no gods" through reason, logic, or science.
 
laska said:
It is poor logic to say no one knows if God exists just because it is outside your own knowledge. The scriptures state that the only people who know are those that God reveals Himself to because of their faith.
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It's outside everyone's knowledge. You can't use scripture in this argument because to do so presupposes gods existence. That's a circular argument. You can't lift yourself off the ground using your own boot straps.
 
Russell797 said:
It's outside everyone's knowledge. You can't use scripture in this argument because to do so presupposes gods existence. That's a circular argument. You can't lift yourself off the ground using your own boot straps.
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Frank Apisa said:
The people here who are saying "there are no gods"...are blindly guessing that there are no gods.

If you are saying there are no gods...you are blindly guessing that there are no gods.

One CANNOT get to "there are no gods" through reason, logic, or science.
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While it is true that there is no logic in support of god, there is logic which supports the non-existence of god, or at least reason not to actively believe there is. It's called the Null Hypothesis. The Null Hypothesis is assumed to be true unless evidence is provided which demonstrates that it is false.
 
Frank Apisa said:
The people here who are saying "there are no gods"...are blindly guessing that there are no gods.

If you are saying there are no gods...you are blindly guessing that there are no gods.

One CANNOT get to "there are no gods" through reason, logic, or science.
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I disagree. Individual reasoning is fluid. People reason wrong all the time. Sometimes, they even reason correctly. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to reason that there is a god or that there is not.
 
I'm an open agnostic individual. I don't discredit anyone's beliefs (what is the point of doing so) nor do I blindly follow any belief without some evidence of why I should.
I lean towards the non-religion based Buddhism, personally and don't really need much more than that. By the same token, I will join my sibling in dinner prayers and prayed with my family when we buried my Mom.
I try to practice a no harm no foul kind of life and, honestly, the atheists in my life (friends and family) seem more combative than the Christians in my life. This has changed from my youth when it was decidedly the other way around and I see this change reflected in other aspects of my day to day life, especially on the internet.

If people would be less concerned about what other people believe or don't believe and just take care of their own journey then it might add a bit of peace to the world in general.
 
calamity said:
Nonsense. Even if god supposedly reveals himself, they really do not know if they are just imagining it or deluding themselves. No one knows. It's unknowable.

Irony Award of the Month nomination though for faulting my logic on this. Kudos!
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You can make an argument then that no one knows anything. The sun that comes up, just your imagination.
 
Russell797 said:
It's outside everyone's knowledge. You can't use scripture in this argument because to do so presupposes gods existence. That's a circular argument. You can't lift yourself off the ground using your own boot straps.
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It is not outside everyone's knowledge, and the scriptures stating a truth and God revealing Himself to someone is independent of each other. No circular argument at all. The same principle of reading something in a science book and then having it verified through an experiment.
 
Russell797 said:
While it is true that there is no logic in support of god, there is logic which supports the non-existence of god, or at least reason not to actively believe there is. It's called the Null Hypothesis. The Null Hypothesis is assumed to be true unless evidence is provided which demonstrates that it is false.
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I am not arguing against any of that.

I AM saying that anyone asserting "there are no gods"...is asserting a blind guess...and nothing more. Anyone who asserts that they arrived at "there are no gods" using reason, logic, or science...is doing the equivalent of a theists saying he/she arrived at "there is a god" using divine revelation.

In fact, there is a greater chance of divine revelation...than arriving at "there are no gods" via reason, logic, or science.
 
calamity said:
I disagree. Individual reasoning is fluid. People reason wrong all the time. Sometimes, they even reason correctly. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to reason that there is a god or that there is not.
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Calamity...one cannot arrive at "there are no gods" using reason, logic or science.

If you are saying a person can erroneously assert something because of faulty reasoning...you can drop the faulty reasoning...because anyone can erroneously assert anything they want.
 
laska said:
You can make an argument then that no one knows anything. The sun that comes up, just your imagination.
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Well, no. We can build mathematical models predicting when the sun will "come up" or go down, for that matter. It's repeatable, and can be verified by all. The "god spoke to me yesterday" thing not so much.
 
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