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Atheism vs Agnosticism

FreedomFromAll said:
How about Greek gods? Do you see no reason why they cannot exist?
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I see no reason that gods cannot exist.

Some gods seem to be inventions. Most of the gods that humans have worshiped seem to be inventions.

But I see no reason to think that gods cannot exist.

I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. The REALITY may be that what we humans call "the universe" is a creation of a GOD.

It may be the case. Just because we humans are not able to determine if that is so or not...DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE NO GODS.

Asserting "there are no gods" is the mirror reflection of asserting "there is at least one god."

Both are the kind of guess someone frightened of the unknown REALITY might make.

At best...it is entertaining to watch people like you doing it.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I see no reason that gods cannot exist.

Some gods seem to be inventions. Most of the gods that humans have worshiped seem to be inventions.
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If "some" gods seem to be inventions; which do not? If "most" gods seem to be inventions; which seem not to be inventions to you?

What I am asserting is that gods are human inventions. Not "some" or "most" like you are asserting. This tells me that indeed there are some gods that you believe are possible.



But I see no reason to think that gods cannot exist.

I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence. The REALITY may be that what we humans call "the universe" is a creation of a GOD.

It may be the case. Just because we humans are not able to determine if that is so or not...DOES NOT MEAN THERE ARE NO GODS.

Asserting "there are no gods" is the mirror reflection of asserting "there is at least one god."

Both are the kind of guess someone frightened of the unknown REALITY might make.

At best...it is entertaining to watch people like you doing it.
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And there it is again you are accusing me of being just like theists. I guess that makes you feel better about yourself. Even if you have to lie in my face to get there, of course by now I used to it.


Speaking of guessing: You are guessing that some gods are not inventions. And you observed that not all gods that humans worship are inventions of the humans worshiping them. I bet that one of those gods is your god.
 
TheGoverness said:
Because God is a unfalsifiable hypothesis.
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Either that, or the term is too vaguely defined to test. Specific concepts of God might be testable and falsifiable.
 
TheGoverness said:
Like the Gods of the major religions?
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In the case of Christianity, the idea of a 'God made Flesh' and 'Resurrection' is testable. It can be shown that when people die, and are dead for three days, they do not come back.

However, in Judaism, WHAt is God is vaguely defined, highly personal, and is not testable. There is no one definition that can be nailed down with dogma.

The roman and Greek concepts of God are testable. As such , they have been falsified.
 
RAMOSS said:
In the case of Christianity, the idea of a 'God made Flesh' and 'Resurrection' is testable. It can be shown that when people die, and are dead for three days, they do not come back.

However, in Judaism, WHAt is God is vaguely defined, highly personal, and is not testable. There is no one definition that can be nailed down with dogma.

The roman and Greek concepts of God are testable. As such , they have been falsified.
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First, there are many scholars that believe early Judaism believed in an anthropomorphic God ie the people who wrote the Hebrew scriptures with such quotes as God created man in His own image. Secondly, how can you possibly test whether God can resurrect a human soul. I have no doubt mortal man cannot accomplish this feat. So where Ramoss was the experiment where you witnessed God not being able to do this?
 
laska said:
First, there are many scholars that believe early Judaism believed in an anthropomorphic God ie the people who wrote the Hebrew scriptures with such quotes as God created man in His own image. Secondly, how can you possibly test whether God can resurrect a human soul. I have no doubt mortal man cannot accomplish this feat. So where Ramoss was the experiment where you witnessed God not being able to do this?
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Now, when it comes to the term 'Soul', you first have to define it better, now don't you? What is 'SOUL', or SPIRIT. If you invoke 'god can do anything, it is demonstrated that doesn't happen.. so the preponderance of evidence demonstrates that kind of god does not exist. And, while early Judaism is very likely to have believed in an antrhopomorphic c God (and indeed it probably wasn't until the 3rd or 4th century bce that the priests manage stamp out asherea worship and enforce monotheism, it hasn't been that way for a couple of thousand years.
 
RAMOSS said:
Now, when it comes to the term 'Soul', you first have to define it better, now don't you? What is 'SOUL', or SPIRIT. If you invoke 'god can do anything, it is demonstrated that doesn't happen.. so the preponderance of evidence demonstrates that kind of god does not exist. And, while early Judaism is very likely to have believed in an antrhopomorphic c God (and indeed it probably wasn't until the 3rd or 4th century bce that the priests manage stamp out asherea worship and enforce monotheism, it hasn't been that way for a couple of thousand years.
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The soul defined as the spirit and the body, what you and everyone else is. And the people of the Book, those that actually had the faith and righteousness to receive revelation from God and had true prophets believed in mankind being in the image of God and that there would be a final resurrection. The reason why much of Christianity and Judaism rejects an anthropomorphic God is because of a falling away from the true authorized religion (apostasy) by the end of the 1st century(most of the nation of Israel had been in a state of apostasy for centuries earlier when Jesus arrived in 1 BC-33AD.). If you believe there was no apostasy, why was there no nation of Israel for almost two thousand years when the covenant God made with the nation was that God would protect her from all nations if she remained faithful.

Many scholars point to the medieval period when the doctrine of an anthropomorphic God was replaced by Jewish scholars. Not sure when they abandoned the resurrection, will have to do some research on that. Much of Christianity rejected the doctrine of anthropomorphic God even earlier by the second century as they were influenced by the Greco-Roman world.
 
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laska said:
The soul defined as the spirit and the body, what you and everyone else is. And the people of the Book, those that actually had the faith and righteousness to receive revelation from God and had true prophets believed in mankind being in the image of God and that there would be a final resurrection. The reason why much of Christianity and Judaism rejects an anthropomorphic God is because of a falling away from the true authorized religion (apostasy) by the end of the 1st century(most of the nation of Israel had been in a state of apostasy for centuries earlier when Jesus arrived in 1 BC-33AD.). If you believe there was no apostasy, why was there no nation of Israel for almost two thousand years when the covenant God made with the nation was that God would protect her from all nations if she remained faithful.

Many scholars point to the medieval period when the doctrine of an anthropomorphic God was replaced by Jewish scholars. Not sure when they abandoned the resurrection, will have to do some research on that. Much of Christianity rejected the doctrine of anthropomorphic God even earlier by the second century as they were influenced by the Greco-Roman world.
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So, you define one word with another word that doesn't seem to have a real world analogue to it. What is 'spirit'? Can you come up with a definition that can be universally agreed on?
 
FreedomFromAll said:
If "some" gods seem to be inventions; which do not? If "most" gods seem to be inventions; which seem not to be inventions to you?
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The kind I have suggested. The kinds we humans have no idea about.

What I am asserting is that gods are human inventions. Not "some" or "most" like you are asserting. This tells me that indeed there are some gods that you believe are possible.
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I do not do "believing"...and I do not make guesses about gods.

HERE IS WHAT I AM SAYING:

I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods;
I do not know if there are no gods;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that they are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.


And there it is again you are accusing me of being just like theists. I guess that makes you feel better about yourself. Even if you have to lie in my face to get there, of course by now I used to it.
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You are an example of a theist who insists there is at least one god...but a mirror example. Theists of that sort insist there is at least one god; you insist there are none.

Neither of you KNOWS for sure...but you are not capable of acknowledging that you do not know...and you want to insist your blind guess is correct.

I find both funny. If that bothers you...tough.

Speaking of guessing: You are guessing that some gods are not inventions. And you observed that not all gods that humans worship are inventions of the humans worshiping them. I bet that one of those gods is your god.
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I have not insisted any such thing.

If you think I have...QUOTE the words I used rather than characterizing what you think I said.
 
Frank Apisa said:
The kind I have suggested. The kinds we humans have no idea about.



I do not do "believing"...and I do not make guesses about gods.

HERE IS WHAT I AM SAYING:

I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods;
I do not know if there are no gods;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that they are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.




You are an example of a theist who insists there is at least one god...but a mirror example. Theists of that sort insist there is at least one god; you insist there are none.

Neither of you KNOWS for sure...but you are not capable of acknowledging that you do not know...and you want to insist your blind guess is correct.

I find both funny. If that bothers you...tough.



I have not insisted any such thing.

If you think I have...QUOTE the words I used rather than characterizing what you think I said.
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Blah blah blah. There you go again just repeating yourself to make yourself feel good about yourself. There are no gods. You can of course disagree with that assertion if you please. I will go a step further and assert that there are no other imaginary beings either. You can waste your time wondering about made up **** but I dont do such things.

For the record I havent made a blind guess. I have deduced the evidence that we have that all gods are the fruit of human imagination. Its your problem if you want to discuss imagined things as if they could be real.
 
Paralogic said:
Prove that three invisible yellow butterflies are flying around your head, telling you what to do and directing your actions.

You can't.

Does that mean that you are a three-yellow-butterfly-religion-god agnostic? Yes it does. Unless you realize you have to admit reality and reject any claim that is unsubstantiated.

That's why no gods exist --- it's because no claims of their existence were ever, are ever, or will ever be substantiated.

Wake up and smell reality.

In the meantime, agnostics are theists --- the would accept an unsubstantiated claim of a god if their personal ego-centric emotional needs were satisfied, which means that agnostics are theists.
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You have it backwards. Agnostics are currently atheists. They do not actively believe in god.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Really? You see no reason why gods cannot exist? All of them?
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Any imagined god, by any name, represents appeal to the supernatural. The supernatural by definition does not exists in nature. If it does not exist in nature then we can not know it.

If we can't know it then there is no reason to believe in it. Any of it.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Blah blah blah. There you go again just repeating yourself to make yourself feel good about yourself. There are no gods.
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I'm sorry, but I am laughing at you...because the suggestion that YOU KNOW there are no gods...is laughable.

You can of course disagree with that assertion if you please.
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I'd rather laugh at it...the way I would laugh at the antics of a clown.


I will go a step further and assert that there are no other imaginary beings either. You can waste your time wondering about made up **** but I dont do such things.
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I notice you also do not do thinking.

You ought to give it a try.

For the record I havent made a blind guess. I have deduced the evidence that we have that all gods are the fruit of human imagination. Its your problem if you want to discuss imagined things as if they could be real.
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You most assuredly HAVE made a blind guess on this...even though you are not possessed of the ethics to acknowledge you have.

No problem.

I didn't expect that you had.
 
Russell797 said:
Any imagined god, by any name, represents appeal to the supernatural. The supernatural by definition does not exists in nature. If it does not exist in nature then we can not know it.

If we can't know it then there is no reason to believe in it. Any of it.
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Another word for the supernatural is bull****. The supernatural is nothing more than a place to move the goal posts too.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I'm sorry, but I am laughing at you...because the suggestion that YOU KNOW there are no gods...is laughable.



I'd rather laugh at it...the way I would laugh at the antics of a clown.




I notice you also do not do thinking.

You ought to give it a try.



You most assuredly HAVE made a blind guess on this...even though you are not possessed of the ethics to acknowledge you have.

No problem.

I didn't expect that you had.
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Your faith is strong.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Your faith is strong.
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I have no faith. I acknowledge that I do not know.

YOUR faith that you do KNOW...is very strong.

I guess people who are into faith would consider that a virtue.



I don't. ;)
 
Frank Apisa said:
I have no faith. I acknowledge that I do not know.

YOUR faith that you do KNOW...is very strong.

I guess people who are into faith would consider that a virtue.



I don't. ;)
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if you actually tried to explain yourself rather than just repeating crap that you read somewhere over and over; I wouldnt think of your position as a pile a faith in in your position.
 
Paralogic said:
They definitely are.

Agnosticism is a soft version of theism -- agnostics accept the existence of a god if only they would be eventually convinced gods exist.

Atheism is the rejection of any claim of divinity --- no human was ever able, is ever able, or will ever be able to prove their claims of the supernatural. Therefore, there are no gods.

Pure and simple as that.
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I'd say this is close. I guess my interpretation of agnosticism is slightly different in that I believe it also includes those who simply are unsure of whether or not a god exists. But I might be wrong.

I've always viewed atheism as being of two types: soft atheism and hard atheism. Soft A is a bit like the agnostic but they do not believe in a god. Whether they are sure it exists or not is not relevant to them. They just do not believe. Hard A is sure that there is no god. But, again, I might be wrong.

My position is pretty much a hard atheist. I don't believe in gods even though I can see where something we do not understand which is above it all may exist...but, I doubt that it does.
 
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