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Making Noise not Sense

Tim the plumber said:
There are often arguments here and elsewhere where one side seems intent upon simply being the last to say something.

To me, I hope, this difference is clear. See the posts by Presluc on the Evolution creationism thread.

But there are often many other examples. Most are where the subject is of religious charicter.

Why do people do this?

Who are they convincing with such drivel?

Is it anybody other than themselves?
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It's an effort to rile each other up.

But I know what you mean.
 
CLAX1911 said:
calamity said:
Religious people feel under attack in this country. Everything they believe is being ripped apart. Some is deserved some is not. But, I guess when people are told that everything they hold dear is stupid and childish, they dig in their heels.[/QUOT]So they suffer from a persecution complex?

Can you point out which laws have been passed that force a church to perform weddings? Or accept abortion?


What attacks?
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"Catering gay weddings" has nothing to do with church. You do know what catering is....correct?
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Tim the plumber said:
There are often arguments here and elsewhere where one side seems intent upon simply being the last to say something.

To me, I hope, this difference is clear. See the posts by Presluc on the Evolution creationism thread.

But there are often many other examples. Most are where the subject is of religious charicter.

Why do people do this?

Who are they convincing with such drivel?

Is it anybody other than themselves?
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people like to interact...that's why we are here

I personally love a well thought out argument that is contrary to my own because it makes me think

I do not believe I have a corner on truth but even when I disagree adamantly I love to see a great counter argument

I do roll my eyes though when comments such as: you are a liar, or you are stupid or the big irritant for me is when people say: "you believe"... no one knows what another "believes" and that approach is one of the biggest turns offs for me...I become dismissive even if I continue to banter
 
I think I have not communicated well in the OP.

It's not that I expect good arguments from other people. It's that I am puzzeled when the standard of posting gets to simply drivel. Surely even the one posting knows that he has lost any hope of convincing the other side or the spectators so why continue when all you are doing is to show your idiocy?
 
Tim the plumber said:
I think I have not communicated well in the OP.

It's not that I expect good arguments from other people. It's that I am puzzeled when the standard of posting gets to simply drivel. Surely even the one posting knows that he has lost any hope of convincing the other side or the spectators so why continue when all you are doing is to show your idiocy?
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Chill Tim, the poison is being injected by the respondents not your OP.

Your OP is fine.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Once again, a church doesn't have to cater any wedding it doesn't wish to.

A photographer isn't a church.
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Why are you bringing a church into this? I never said anything about a church being forced to do something. Sheesh!

Read, please.


calamity said:
Religious people feel under attack in this country. Everything they believe is being ripped apart. Some is deserved some is not. But, I guess when people are told that everything they hold dear is stupid and childish, they dig in their heels.

There is also the attack on their rights. We can thank PC Progressives for the animosity associated with that, IMO. When you see laws passed that force the religious to do things or say things which they believe conflicts with their religion, like catering gay weddings or accepting abortions or agreeing that god didn't create man, they get defensive and tend to shut out arguments.

I'm not religious. And, I've taken my share of swipes at them. But, I can clearly see that some of the attacks on religious belief and value systems are over the top, especially those attacks which come with the force of law. This won't end well. They have a lot of power, and they will fight back. You may see a result of it in November. Odds are high that we will have a very religious president elected this year.
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calamity said:
Why are you bringing a church into this? I never said anything about a church.

Read, please.
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Well, I can destroy this argument pretty easily. If I had a photography company and I said that it was against my religion to serve black people, would I then be permitted to discriminate against black people or would I face fines?
 
calamity said:
Why are you bringing a church into this? I never said anything about a church being forced to do something. Sheesh!

Read, please.
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OK, I'll respond to your posts;

Originally Posted by calamity View Post
Religious people feel under attack in this country. Everything they believe is being ripped apart. Some is deserved some is not. But, I guess when people are told that everything they hold dear is stupid and childish, they dig in their heels.

There is also the attack on their rights. We can thank PC Progressives for the animosity associated with that, IMO. When you see laws passed that force the religious to do things or say things which they believe conflicts with their religion, like catering gay weddings or accepting abortions or agreeing that god didn't create man, they get defensive and tend to shut out arguments.

I'm not religious. And, I've taken my share of swipes at them. But, I can clearly see that some of the attacks on religious belief and value systems are over the top, especially those attacks which come with the force of law. This won't end well. They have a lot of power, and they will fight back. You may see a result of it in November. Odds are high that we will have a very religious president elected this year.
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1, What has that got to do with the thread.... oh, wait a minute it is exactly what I was talking about, drivel! Used to avoid actually discussing the subject and avoid thinking about it!

2, What laws have been passed to make the religious believe that God did not create man or that they have to have abortions themselves???? What are you talking about???

3, You could have made a case for allowing people in small companies the right not to do certain jobs which whilst within the expectation for such a company they could refuse on religious grounds or that within larger organisations that they could avoid certain duties within that organisation. But no, off you go with gibberish about people being forced to believe x or y. This has not happened!!

4, So I ask;- Who do you think you are impressing?
 
Tim the plumber said:
OK, I'll respond to your posts;



1, What has that got to do with the thread.... oh, wait a minute it is exactly what I was talking about, drivel! Used to avoid actually discussing the subject and avoid thinking about it!

2, What laws have been passed to make the religious believe that God did not create man or that they have to have abortions themselves???? What are you talking about???

3, You could have made a case for allowing people in small companies the right not to do certain jobs which whilst within the expectation for such a company they could refuse on religious grounds or that within larger organisations that they could avoid certain duties within that organisation. But no, off you go with gibberish about people being forced to believe x or y. This has not happened!!

4, So I ask;- Who do you think you are impressing?
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You asked in your OP why people dig their heels in during debates. Well, believe it or not, when everything that religious people hold dear is under attack (and I am not just talking about laws here), they're going to fight back. And, that, Tim, is coming from an avid atheist.
 
"Everything they hold dear" is a massive overreaction to having their privilege cut back. Nobody is asking them to do anything. They just have to permit others the same choice they demand for themselves.
 
calamity said:
You asked in your OP why people dig their heels in during debates. Well, believe it or not, when everything that religious people hold dear is under attack (and I am not just talking about laws here), they're going to fight back. And, that, Tim, is coming from an avid atheist.
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Nothing religious people hold dear it's under attack. That's a conspiracy theory.

What it's really happening is that homosexuality is becoming a protected status like the others.

They simply don't like it because they cooked it up in their little minds that or nation should respect their religion. They aren't being attacked. That is playing victim to get their way.
 
Manc Skipper said:
"Everything they hold dear" is a massive overreaction to having their privilege cut back. Nobody is asking them to do anything. They just have to permit others the same choice they demand for themselves.
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Back during the beginning of the civil rights movement in the sixties, the Christian people tried to stake claim in the discrimination of black people being a religious right.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Nothing religious people hold dear it's under attack. That's a conspiracy theory.

What it's really happening is that homosexuality is becoming a protected status like the others.

They simply don't like it because they cooked it up in their little minds that or nation should respect their religion. They aren't being attacked. That is playing victim to get their way.
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I would like nothing better than to take God out of our schools and put free condoms in them. I'd like abortion to be as easy to get as a Big Mac. I believe men have as much right to marry men as they do women, and vice-versa. But, I completely understand that a lot of people believe the exact opposite.

We have a society that is rapidly moving away from the old-school culture of one man, one woman, married for life with three kids, one car and a babysitter on Saturday night. A lot of people are freaked out by that fact. In a perfect world, those people would deal with life the way it is and not how they wish it would be. But, I totally understand that they don't. So, it's kind of like living with things as they are and not as I wish they were when I accept the fact that many Americans are still stuck in the Bronze Age.

When those people post nutty things on the forum and refuse to listen to reason, it does not surprise me. BTW, the other side does it too.
 
calamity said:
I would like nothing better than to take God out of our schools and put free condoms in them. I'd like abortion to be as easy to get as a Big Mac. I believe men have as much right to marry men as they do women, and vice-versa. But, I completely understand that a lot of people believe the exact opposite.
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I understand that to. But it's not an attack on them to expand rights. It frankly has absolutely no effect on them what do ever.

We have a society that is rapidly moving away from the old-school culture of one man, one woman, married for life with three kids, one car and a babysitter on Saturday night. A lot of people are freaked out by that fact. In a perfect world, those people would deal with life the way it is and not how they wish it would be. But, I totally understand that they don't. So, it's kind of like living with things as they are and not as I wish they were when I accept the fact that many Americans are still stuck in the Bronze Age.
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Again, nothing is happening to them. They can still be pro life, they can still not marry a person of the same sex. They can still worship God. All they have to do is tolerate the existence of people who don't abide by those guidelines, that isn't new, that was established in the founding of our country.

When those people post nutty things on the forum and refuse to listen to reason, it does not surprise me. BTW, the other side does it too.
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Agreed.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I understand that to. But it's not an attack on them to expand rights. It frankly has absolutely no effect on them what do ever.
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You, I and millions of other people may see it that way. But, obviously, they do not. The thread is asking why they become obstinate in these threads. That's why. They see things completely different than other people do.

For me, gay people getting married, woman getting an abortion and schools teaching science to kids who then figure out that what religions say about the Sky God, Jesus or Mohammad is probably bull**** is not a big deal. For them, it's the end of the world as they know it. Of course they're going to dig their heels in.

Again, nothing is happening to them. They can still be pro life, they can still not marry a person of the same sex. They can still worship God. All they have to do is tolerate the existence of people who don't abide by those guidelines, that isn't new, that was established in the founding of our country.
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They'll say they do tolerate it, but they still want laws banning abortion, defining marriage as between a man and a woman, and push for prayer being allowed in schools. For them it's a war on Christmas when the school calls the holiday vacation Winter Break.
 
calamity said:
You, I and millions of other people may see it that way. But, obviously, they do not. The thread is asking why they become obstinate in these threads. That's why. They see things completely different than other people do.

For me, gay people getting married, woman getting an abortion and schools teaching science to kids who then figure out that what religions say about the Sky God, Jesus or Mohammad is probably bull**** is not a big deal. For them, it's the end of the world as they know it. Of course they're going to dig their heels in.


They'll say they do tolerate it, but they still want laws banning abortion, defining marriage as between a man and a woman, and push for prayer being allowed in schools. For them it's a war on Christmas when the school calls the holiday vacation Winter Break.
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That isn't tolerant.
 
CLAX1911 said:
No it isn't. It's intolerant. To them or anybody. Tolerating something doesn't mean trying to make it illegal. That's the opposite.
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The only thing they want illegal is abortion, which they see as murder--for some reason. They want to defend marriage by making it what it was--a legal bond between one man and one woman--not the redefined same-sex thing we have now. And, for putting God back in schools, they actually want to make that legal since it is currently "illegal" to have organized prayers and religious holidays or whatever.
 
calamity said:
The only thing they want illegal is abortion, which they see as murder--for some reason.
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I view abortion as murder. I could explain my reason but that's a different thread.

But you are mistaken they do not want sane sex marriage legal either.

They want to defend marriage by making it what it was--a legal bond between one man and one woman--not the redefined same-sex thing we have now.
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That is exactly what it is. I am not aware that anything was redefined.

And, for putting God back in schools, they actually want to make that legal since it is currently "illegal" to have organized prayers and religious holidays or whatever.
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It's illegal for God to be in school? I just thought they ended school lead prayer. I would be absolutely against forbidding people to pray in school, I am against the push to remove student ran clubs from existing in school.

It seems I agree almost completely with them. The only difference is that I think my existence should be tolerated.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I view abortion as murder. I could explain my reason but that's a different thread.

But you are mistaken they do not want sane sex marriage legal either.

That is exactly what it is. I am not aware that anything was redefined.
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Abortion is legal. People want to make it illegal. Join an abortion thread and you'll see how crazy it gets when discussing the issue.

Same sex marriage is now on par with all other marriages. There is no legal or illegal about it. The law does however require states to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. So, it does involve laws...more that the ban was lifted than that crimes are involved.

According to those opposed to SSM, marriage has therefore been redefined. Most of those who oppose SSM are in favor of same sex unions. That topic too gets rather heated, especially when it is mentioned that same sex marriage is a civil right.

It's illegal for God to be in school? I just thought they ended school lead prayer. I would be absolutely against forbidding people to pray in school, I am against the push to remove student ran clubs from existing in school.

It seems I agree almost completely with them. The only difference is that I think my existence should be tolerated.
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Most of the vitriol is with regards to taking the teacher-led prayer out of the schools. Particular anger seems to be about banning prayer on the football fields. Go figure. Also, there seems to be a lot of concern that public schools no longer are allowed to use the term Christmas anymore. No Christmas assembly, Christmas carols, Christmas break, etc. This too is a topic that gets people all worked up, though I do not see much concern of it on DP.
 
calamity said:
Abortion is legal. People want to make it illegal. Join an abortion thread and you'll see how crazy it gets when discussing the issue.

Same sex marriage is now on par with all other marriages. There is no legal or illegal about it. The law does however require states to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. So, it does involve laws...more that the ban was lifted than that crimes are involved.

According to those opposed to SSM, marriage has therefore been redefined. Most of those who oppose SSM are in favor of same sex unions. That topic too gets rather heated, especially when it is mentioned that same sex marriage is a civil right.


Most of the vitriol is with regards to taking the teacher-led prayer out of the schools. Particular anger seems to be about banning prayer on the football fields. Go figure. Also, there seems to be a lot of concern that public schools no longer are allowed to use the term Christmas anymore. No Christmas assembly, Christmas carols, Christmas break, etc. This too is a topic that gets people all worked up, though I do not see much concern of it on DP.
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I suppose I understand that. It wouldn't be right to match vitriol with vitriol.
 
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