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I do not believe gods exist…and I do not believe there are no gods.

OrphanSlug said:
(despite roughdraft's comments about gumballs... as in right in front of you that you can see subject to different standards than the idea of God or Gods)
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We are discussing the simple idea of "I don't believe this" & "I don't believe that". The topic of belief is really beside the point. We can be discussing gumballs, god or anything else and the point stands.

The direct logical negation of "I believe the gumballs are odd" isn't "I believe the gum balls are even". It's actually "I believe the gumballs are not odd."

In this exact same sense, the direct logical negation of "I believe gods exist" is not "I believe there are no gods" but instead "I don't believe gods exist."

Denying the first position only tells you the direct logical negation of the phrase. You would have to make assumptions to draw anything else from it.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do not think I have "solved" anything. I posted a thread that sets out my position on the existence of a god or creator...and I did it in a way that shows what, at first sight, seems like a contradiction.

But there is NO contradiction...as some people are able to see.

You have not been able to see it yet.

Okay...that happens.

There absolutely is NO contradiction at all.

If you would just read what I have written in explanation...you would see that.
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It is not about seeing it or not, it is about accepting it or not. The fact that this is the response you hand out suggests something about your motives.

Frank Apisa said:
I have no idea of what you are saying (or trying to say) here.
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What I am trying to say is the argument you have presented is self-serving, borderline ego stroking as it does nothing to advance any conversation about a very old Philosophical debate on the existence or lack of existence of God or Gods. The entire question of existence. Using logic to get beyond myth.

We can go back and forth, use clever wording to talk about "not believing Gods exist" and "not believing there are no Gods" all you would like. Even as conclusions and/or inverses of other statements associated to Theism and Atheism.

If the purpose was to advance understanding of God or Gods in any context, that would at least be something. Just stating your position on this without the reasoning for even needing to do so presents a problem.

We are stuck. And I have illustrated why time and time again despite you trying to continually guide the conversation to some "this one gets it and this one does not."

All meaningless until you present something... anything... to make Atheism and Theism beliefs compatible.
 
roughdraft274 said:
We are discussing the simple idea of "I don't believe this" & "I don't believe that". The topic of belief is really beside the point. We can be discussing gumballs, god or anything else and the point stands.

The direct logical negation of "I believe the gumballs are odd" isn't "I believe the gum balls are even". It's actually "I believe the gumballs are not odd."

In this exact same sense, the direct logical negation of "I believe gods exist" is not "I believe there are no gods" but instead "I don't believe gods exist."

Denying the first position only tells you the direct logical negation of the phrase. You would have to make assumptions to draw anything else from it.
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We are past that, we are talking about acceptance of the idea. And if you believe that gumballs (or anything else) have the same association to deity on this level there is nothing I can do to help you but congratulate you on this very useless victory lap.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I absolutely, positively, without any doubt, on my honor, with a cherry on top...

...am not possessed of a belief or guess that there are no gods.

There well may be gods...and I think the notion of a god or a creator is no more extraordinary a possibility than that this thing we call the universe suddenly popped out of nothingness in a Big Bang.

If you are willing to pay for the polygraph and can set an appointment up close to me...I will be glad to submit to a polygraph assessment of my veracity on this.

Oh, by the way...I absolutely, positively, without any doubt, on my honor, with a cherry on top...

...am not possessed of a belief or guess that there are gods either.

There well may be no gods...and it may be that what we call the universe did just come into existence via the Big Bang...with no creator of any kind involved.

If you pay for it, the polygraph expert can ask me about that also.
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which is what I thought. The play on words is happening with the word believe... it's first definition is "accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of."

The second definition of the word belief is "hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose." which is more what you are leaning towards. BUT unfortunately using it in this way asserts that you have a belief that there are no gods... you think this, you assert it to be true, but you recognize you could be wrong...

But then by your second statement you go back and assert essentially that your first statement is false, in your opinion... but you could be wrong

You don't "believe" either one...all you are claiming is that you don't know
 
OrphanSlug said:
It is not about seeing it or not, it is about accepting it or not. The fact that this is the response you hand out suggests something about your motives.
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What do you see my "motives" to be...other than to provide (what I consider) an entertaining diversion to discuss?



What I am trying to say is the argument you have presented is self-serving, borderline ego stroking as it does nothing to advance any conversation about a very old Philosophical debate on the existence or lack of existence of God or Gods. The entire question of existence. Using logic to get beyond myth.
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I don't stroke my ego...and there is no need for that kind of nonsense.

I am talking about my personal take on the question. Obviously it is an agnostic position.

I do not know if a god or creator exists.

There is no reason to suppose one CANNOT exist...it does not seem to be impossible.

There is no reason to suppose one MUST exist...it certainly is not a necessity for anything I see.

The "evidence" in both directions is so ambiguous it cannot be used to make a meaningful guess. So I don't.

I do not guess (or believe) there is a god; I do not guess (or believe) there are no gods.

That's all I am saying. I have no idea of why that is upsetting you so...but there it is.


We can go back and forth, use clever wording to talk about "not believing Gods exist" and "not believing there are no Gods" all you would like. Even as conclusions and/or inverses of other statements associated to Theism and Atheism.

If the purpose was to advance understanding of God or Gods in any context, that would at least be something. Just stating your position on this without the reasoning for even needing to do so presents a problem.

We are stuck. And I have illustrated why time and time again despite you trying to continually guide the conversation to some "this one gets it and this one does not."
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I am not trying to guide it there...it become obvious. Some people get what I am saying; some don't. You obviously are one of the "don't" people.

All meaningless until you present something... anything... to make Atheism and Theism beliefs compatible.
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Why?
 
celticwar17 said:
which is what I thought. The play on words is happening with the word believe... it's first definition is "accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of."

The second definition of the word belief is "hold (something) as an opinion; think or suppose." which is more what you are leaning towards. BUT unfortunately using it in this way asserts that you have a belief that there are no gods... you think this, you assert it to be true, but you recognize you could be wrong...

But then by your second statement you go back and assert essentially that your first statement is false, in your opinion... but you could be wrong

You don't "believe" either one...all you are claiming is that you don't know
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I most assuredly do not know...and I strongly suspect that no one else here does either.

I am unwilling to guess in either direction.

I have no idea of why you keep insisting that I "believe" there are no gods...but you are dead wrong.

I do not "believe" (suppose, guess, estimate) that at all.

Neither do I "believe" (suppose, guess, estimate) that there is at least on god.
 
celticwar17 said:
convince me that... the second part is actually true about yourself... are you using the word believe like think? "I think there are no gods, but there could be-I don't care enough" ?

unless you are changing the meaning of your words mid conversation or using definitions of the words uncharacteristically. ... the statements are contradictory...
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"I do not think there are gods," does not mean "I think that there are no gods." I am simply unconvinced either way.
 
I can think of many better ways to express this.

"I'm ambivalent"
"I am unsure"
"I'm not convinced one way or the other"
"I don't have an opinion on that topic"
"I'm agnostic".
 
CrabCake said:
I can think of many better ways to express this.

"I'm ambivalent"
"I am unsure"
"I'm not convinced one way or the other"
"I don't have an opinion on that topic"
"I'm agnostic".
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Looking forward to your thread.
 
calamity said:
"I do not think there are gods," does not mean "I think that there are no gods." I am simply unconvinced either way.
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Yes... they mean the exact same thing...
 
Frank Apisa said:
What do you see my "motives" to be...other than to provide (what I consider) an entertaining diversion to discuss?

I don't stroke my ego...and there is no need for that kind of nonsense.

I am talking about my personal take on the question. Obviously it is an agnostic position.

I do not know if a god or creator exists.

There is no reason to suppose one CANNOT exist...it does not seem to be impossible.

There is no reason to suppose one MUST exist...it certainly is not a necessity for anything I see.

The "evidence" in both directions is so ambiguous it cannot be used to make a meaningful guess. So I don't.

I do not guess (or believe) there is a god; I do not guess (or believe) there are no gods.

That's all I am saying. I have no idea of why that is upsetting you so...but there it is.

I am not trying to guide it there...it become obvious. Some people get what I am saying; some don't. You obviously are one of the "don't" people.

Why?
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It is not upsetting, I just do not buy the line of thought. Again, it is not about not getting it. It is about arguing against it.

The only olive branch I will offer about agnosticism is there are a few flavors of it, and perhaps I am not considering your take on agnosticism as being all that practical. My core issue is bringing in belief where I tend not to do that. Suppose God or Gods may or may not exist is one thing, belief in these terms is another.

That is about all I can offer.
 
CrabCake said:
I can think of many better ways to express this.

"I'm ambivalent"
"I am unsure"
"I'm not convinced one way or the other"
"I don't have an opinion on that topic"
"I'm agnostic".
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No. I am 100% certain that I do not believe in gods. I am also 100% certain that I do not believe there are no gods. I simply believe neither, that there are gods nor that there are no gods.
 
calamity said:
No. I am 100% certain that I do not believe in gods. I am also 100% certain that I do not believe there are no gods. I simply believe neither, that there are gods nor that there are no gods.
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Right... so you don't believe in God.

End of discussion.
 
Manny said:
Right... so you don't believe in God.

End of discussion.
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That is correct. And, my lack of belief is not a belief system.
 
Manny said:
But it does seem to be highly organized...
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Yeah, you've seen some of those emails from Atheism Central then. My handler encrypts them and forwards them onto me from the Atheist Intelligence Bureau on a weekly basis.
 
I do not believe gods exist = I believe gods exist.

And I do not believe there are no gods = Double negative = I believe there are gods.

The contradiction is between: I believe that gods exist and I believe there are no gods.

Unless the position of "believing that something cannot exist yet it can be" is explained (i.e., word play between existing and being/are) then this is a contradiction.
 
DDD said:
I do not believe gods exist = I believe gods exist.
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Huh???

And I do not believe there are no gods = Double negative = I believe there are gods.

The contradiction is between: I believe that gods exist and I believe there are no gods.

Unless the position of "believing that something cannot exist yet it can be" is explained (i.e., word play between existing and being/are) then this is a contradiction.
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Take this one at a time:

There are people who believe gods exist. I am not one of them.

I do not believe gods exist.





There also are people who believe there are no gods. I am not one of them.

I do not believe there are no gods.





So...

I do not believe gods exist...and I do not believe there are no gods.

It is not all that confusing.
 
Frank Apisa said:
At first glance, it seems as though the title is inconsistent and illogical.

But it isn't...and it accurately states my position on the question of whether a god or a creator exists.


Is there anyone here who cannot see it...who thinks the title is illogical?

It matters...and impacts on something being discussed in Calamity's thread, Atheism, Is not believing in gods a belief or not?
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The title is simply saying:

1 st part) There are no gods

2nd part) There are gods

So???????? Back to square one, huh?
 
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