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'How Jesus became god'... from not being one. Bart Ehrman.

Without delving into his books, I have a few of them, I can't present "his main argument". The basic point made is the ever so small one - there are NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA non-Christian sources for the resurrection.

There are NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA first-century, non-Christian sources who dispel the resurrection

The four canonical gospels were not written by eyewitnesses or by scribes who were told the story by eyewitnesses.

False. The early church fathers attest to the traditional, historical Gospel writers.

For several centuries, there were those who called themselves Christian who did not believe the Christ had ever even walked on the face of the Earth and that all of His story had taken place on a higher plane, somewhere between Heaven and Earth.

Yep, Jesus said there would be wolves posing as sheep. That's no doubt who you're talking about.

And I'm glad to see that Ehrman has no credible argument that militates against the historicity of the Resurrection.
 
Without delving into his books, I have a few of them, I can't present "his main argument". The basic point made is the ever so small one - there are NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA non-Christian sources for the resurrection. The four canonical gospels were not written by eyewitnesses or by scribes who were told the story by eyewitnesses.

For several centuries, there were those who called themselves Christian who did not believe the Christ had ever even walked on the face of the Earth and that all of His story had taken place on a higher plane, somewhere between Heaven and Earth.

You have failed to provide "proper scrutiny" to any statements made by those who disagree with your specific religious views.

There are NO, NONE, ZERO, NADA first-century, non-Christian sources who dispel the resurrection



False. The early church fathers attest to the traditional, historical Gospel writers.



Yep, Jesus said there would be wolves posing as sheep. That's no doubt who you're talking about.

And I'm glad to see that Ehrman has no credible argument that militates against the historicity of the Resurrection.

There are no "non-Christian sources who dispel the resurrection" because for some reason, several hundred zombies walking around in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53) was of little interest and therefore nobody wrote about it. Just one example of problems when your argument is based on "They said nothing therefore what I said is true!!" It's like arguing that George Washington really did throw a dollar coin across the Potomac as a young boy because there are no stories of the time saying he didn't do it.

Which "early church fathers" offered testimony about the authorship of the gospels? Name them and the time in which they lived.

The Gnostics, Docetists, Arians, etc were the wolves? When the group which became orthodox Christianity took power in the Roman Empire, who was it who suffered?

As I rather specifically stated that I wasn't using Ehrman's argument, you can't say that he has no "credible argument". Since you refuse to accept any facts which contradict your beliefs, it is impossible to contradict you. Reality seems to have little connection to those beliefs but that is well-known.
 
There are no "non-Christian sources who dispel the resurrection" because for some reason, several hundred zombies walking around in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53) was of little interest and therefore nobody wrote about it. Just one example of problems when your argument is based on "They said nothing therefore what I said is true!!" It's like arguing that George Washington really did throw a dollar coin across the Potomac as a young boy because there are no stories of the time saying he didn't do it.

The problem for you is that there are multiple, independent, historical sources which confirm the resurrection, but none from your side who dispel it.

Which "early church fathers" offered testimony about the authorship of the gospels? Name them and the time in which they lived.

We'll just take Matthew and you can go figure out the rest. If you were you familiar with Eusebius (who quotes Origen), you would know that "the first (Gospel) was written by Matthew...and was prepared for the converts from Judaism" (Ecclesiastical History, 6:25). There is additional evidence that it was originally written in Hebrew. Eusebius quotes Papias as stating, “"Matthew put together the oracles in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." Irenaeus wrote, "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church."

And that beats the gradeau out of what you have.

The Gnostics, Docetists, Arians, etc were the wolves? When the group which became orthodox Christianity took power in the Roman Empire, who was it who suffered?

Anybody who claims to be a Christian but who denies Christ and/or the resurrection is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist..." 1 John 2:22
 
The problem for you is that there are multiple, independent, historical sources which confirm the resurrection, but none from your side who dispel it.

Name these "multiple, independent, historical sources"


We'll just take Matthew and you can go figure out the rest. If you were you familiar with Eusebius (who quotes Origen), you would know that "the first (Gospel) was written by Matthew...and was prepared for the converts from Judaism" (Ecclesiastical History, 6:25). There is additional evidence that it was originally written in Hebrew. Eusebius quotes Papias as stating, “"Matthew put together the oracles in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." Irenaeus wrote, "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church."

A 'few' problems. You are quoting an apologist who is relying upon a third century person (Eusebius) quoting the words of someone who lived years before (Origen) who was referring to a person (Papias) who may have written something about a man named Matthew who supposedly wrote a text containing sayings of Jesus written in Hebrew.

We have nothing of the writings of Papias, who was in one place said by Eusebius to be a man with "a small mind" and that Papias' strange accounts of the Lord's parables and doctrinal sayings were "rather too fabulous"

Owing to various comments found within the Book of Mark, the majority of scholars give it an earlier date than the text of Matthew but is a matter of discussion. BUT the fact is - today, more and more people who study the history - not the theology - but the data we presently have - are kind of giving up on dating any of the texts. As noted in an earlier post, today we know of 10 fragments that can be positively dated to the Second Century. We DO NOT KNOW what was written in the First, Second and for the most part even the Third Centuries because what we have are copies of copies of copies of copies often dated hundreds of years after their supposed composition.

And that beats the gradeau out of what you have.



Anybody who claims to be a Christian but who denies Christ and/or the resurrection is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist..." 1 John 2:22

Those churches persecuted by the early Church didn't deny Christ, they simply had different theologies and different views of Jesus and the form he took during his time upon Earth
 
The orthodox teachings prevailed because they were the earliest and most widespread. The assorted gnostics, docetists, Arians, Marcionites, etc. were all minor cults and cranks and forgers themselves, and deserve little attention outsides of being historical curiosities. The followers of Walter Bauer and Elaine Pagels are just attention mongers promoting fads and their own careers, and from what I've read of Erhman and his books I don't see anything different going on in his case either. They're popular with endless cells of conspiritards and assorted agendas that want to invent a 'New Improved PC Jesus' who endorses such miscellaneous pastimes as anal sex, hippy festivals and mindless self-indulgence, and abortions; amazingly, this New Jesus is an advocate of everything fashionable and trendy with New Age fantasy around. Just coincidence, of course ...

Darrell Bock is the most credible scholar out there on the assorted 'missing Gospels', not Erhman or the various peddlers of the Bauer School of revisionism. This book is just one of many excellent critiques of that school and its fashion victims.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CPjUBQAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

See also Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels for another excellent survey of the many unsubstantiated claims made by the revisionists.
 
The orthodox teachings prevailed because they were the earliest and most widespread. The assorted gnostics, docetists, Arians, Marcionites, etc. were all minor cults and cranks and forgers themselves, and deserve little attention outsides of being historical curiosities. The followers of Walter Bauer and Elaine Pagels are just attention mongers promoting fads and their own careers, and from what I've read of Erhman and his books I don't see anything different going on in his case either. They're popular with endless cells of conspiritards and assorted agendas that want to invent a 'New Improved PC Jesus' who endorses such miscellaneous pastimes as anal sex, hippy festivals and mindless self-indulgence, and abortions; amazingly, this New Jesus is an advocate of everything fashionable and trendy with New Age fantasy around. Just coincidence, of course ...

Darrell Bock is the most credible scholar out there on the assorted 'missing Gospels', not Erhman or the various peddlers of the Bauer School of revisionism. This book is just one of many excellent critiques of that school and its fashion victims.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CPjUBQAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

See also Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels for another excellent survey of the many unsubstantiated claims made by the revisionists.

Could you please show that "Darrell Bock is the most credible scholar out there". That sounds like a biased opinion to me. I hope he is not involvec with the Dallas Theological Seminary in any way shape or form, because that would level set me on your credibility.
 
Name these "multiple, independent, historical sources"

A 'few' problems. You are quoting an apologist who is relying upon a third century person (Eusebius) quoting the words of someone who lived years before (Origen) who was referring to a person (Papias) who may have written something about a man named Matthew who supposedly wrote a text containing sayings of Jesus written in Hebrew.

We have nothing of the writings of Papias, who was in one place said by Eusebius to be a man with "a small mind" and that Papias' strange accounts of the Lord's parables and doctrinal sayings were "rather too fabulous"

Owing to various comments found within the Book of Mark, the majority of scholars give it an earlier date than the text of Matthew but is a matter of discussion. BUT the fact is - today, more and more people who study the history - not the theology - but the data we presently have - are kind of giving up on dating any of the texts. As noted in an earlier post, today we know of 10 fragments that can be positively dated to the Second Century. We DO NOT KNOW what was written in the First, Second and for the most part even the Third Centuries because what we have are copies of copies of copies of copies often dated hundreds of years after their supposed composition.

Those churches persecuted by the early Church didn't deny Christ, they simply had different theologies and different views of Jesus and the form he took during his time upon Earth

You can quibble about these sources all you want, but there's no getting rid of them. None of the NT writers ever questioned the resurrection or the person of Christ. If you had on your side the historical writings that comprise the NT, you'd be doing back flips.

Jesus is Risen indeed!
 
You can quibble about these sources all you want, but there's no getting rid of them. None of the NT writers ever questioned the resurrection or the person of Christ. If you had on your side the historical writings that comprise the NT, you'd be doing back flips.

Jesus is Risen indeed!

or in other words, "I BELIEVE THE BOOK!!!!" and an actual discussion is not possible


It is rather central to the discussion that the man called Jesus was of so little interest to the Roman Empire's note takers they never bothered to write a word about the mass gatherings before which he spoke or to mention any of the bizarre natural events which supposedly took place at the time of the crucifixion or - as some historians have noted, the little kerfuffle at the Temple when the money changers were thrown out. This action alone should have been recorded as Pilate had legionnaires stationed there to keep the peace. Considering the way he was known to stop Jewish riots - send in the troops and kill people until the riot was over, which we do have records for - a major disturbance at the Temple would have been noted in the archives.
 
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Could you please show that "Darrell Bock is the most credible scholar out there". That sounds like a biased opinion to me. I hope he is not involvec with the Dallas Theological Seminary in any way shape or form, because that would level set me on your credibility.

Prof Bock is faculty at the Dallas Theological Seminary - "Executive Director of Cultural Engagement and Senior Research Professor of New Testament Studies." Though I will give him credit for studying abroad, PhD from the University of Aberdeen and post-doctoral work at Tubingen University.
 
or in other words, "I BELIEVE THE BOOK!!!!" and an actual discussion is not possible


It is rather central to the discussion that the man called Jesus was of so little interest to the Roman Empire's note takers they never bothered to write a word about the mass gatherings before which he spoke or to mention any of the bizarre natural events which supposedly took place at the time of the crucifixion or - as some historians have noted, the little kerfuffle at the Temple when the money changers were thrown out. This action alone should have been recorded as Pilate had legionnaires stationed there to keep the peace. Considering the way he was known to stop Jewish riots - send in the troops and kill people until the riot was over, which we do have records for - a major disturbance at the Temple would have been noted in the archives.

Have you ever read "The Historical Jesus," by Gary Habermas?
 
Have you ever read "The Historical Jesus," by Gary Habermas?

Why do you ask? Habermas is an evangelical Christian who had to sign and swear to an affirmation of faith in an "inerrant text", why should I believe what he has written in one of his attempts to defend the concept of a deity who walked the earth with humans by his side?
 
Could you please show that "Darrell Bock is the most credible scholar out there". That sounds like a biased opinion to me. I hope he is not involvec with the Dallas Theological Seminary in any way shape or form, because that would level set me on your credibility.

You aren't going to read his work anyway, and given your rather ignorant versions of 'history', I can't bring myself to care who or what you consider 'credible'. In fact, why not post a list of who you consider 'credible' so I can avoid wasting my time reading them?
 
If Jesus wasn't God he sure had His support. Yeah, I think God can be whomever He wants to be.
 
You aren't going to read his work anyway, and given your rather ignorant versions of 'history', I can't bring myself to care who or what you consider 'credible'. In fact, why not post a list of who you consider 'credible' so I can avoid wasting my time reading them?

In other words, you are making an opinion you can't back up, and expect people to take you seriously. Just a hint, things don't work that way.
 
Re Walther Bauer and the ‘new school’ and the claims there was no early orthodoxy but a diversity of Christian beliefs early on.
Bauer’s two main theses:

Bauer had two main content ideas.

1. There were originally varieties of Christianities, not a fixed orthodoxy. In the beginning there were Christianities, existing side by side with no one option having a superior claim on apostolic roots. He claimed there was hard evidence to support this conclusion. In his regional survey of Edessa of ancient Syria and Alexandria in Egypt, Bauer argued that what became known as heresy was the faith’s original form. Other regions such as Asia Minor and Macedonia give evidence that such heretical views were at least a more prevalent minority than the church sources suggest. So Bauer’s key point is that orthodoxy is a construct of the later church. Between the fourth and sixth centuries a later orthodoxy was projected back into this earlier period. Bauer’s implication is that what Christianity has been and what it originally was are so different that we should rethink (or make over) the faith.

2.What allowed for the development of orthodoxy was the Roman church’s successful control over other areas in the late second century. Thus, for example, Rome threw its weight around in Corinth, even though Corinth had more diversity than orthodoxy.

Eventually, Rome won across most of Christiandom, so orthodoxy won. Bauer claimed that this victory distorted the earliest history, and subsequent writers, embracing his thesis, formed the new school with its push to reassess this history.

An Assessment of Bauer’s Content Theses

Did Rome Control? Is the orthodox church Rome’s work? Subsequent critique has discredited his thesis. In fact, the German church historian Hans-Dietrich Altendorf described this feature of Bauer’s work as playing with the argument from silence so that the result was the “constructive fantasy of the author”. Later he spoke of an elegantly worked out fiction” to describe Bauer’s view of of how Rome directed Corinth.

A closer look at Bauer’s argument helps us. If Rome is the center of orthodoxy, then Bauer must show two things: (1) that orthodoxy really did not exist elsewhere and (2) that Roman communication in I Clement (ca. AD 95) to Corinth was not merely an attempt to persuade but was a ruling imposed on Corinth. However neither of these is the case. [/quote]

See Norris, Frederick W. 1976, {b]Ignatius, Polycarp, and I Clement: Walter Bauer Reconsidered.[/b] Vigilae Christianae 30:23-44.

On the first point, we know that Antioch and Asia Minor were strongholds for what became orthodox views in this early period

See Robinson, Thomas A..1988, The Bauer Thesis Examined: The Geography of Heresy in the Early Christian Church.

Continued ...
 
Ephesus was an especially important center as well as Jerusalem, which Bauer completely ignored. There were several key, orthodox locales for the early church besides Rome. ..

Six further points argue against the Roman control thesis.

1. Norris notes that the idea of a city having a single bishop, which some consider integral to Roman powers and claims, emerged first in Jerusalem and Syria, not Rome.Ignatius and Polycarp represent the evidence here from Syria, while James oversaw the church in Jerusalem very early on.

2. This same Ignatius can speak of a separation between competing groups that points to a sense of orthodoxy versus heresy. As just noted, Ignatius was not from Rome.

3. Some of the most important witnesses we have of “orthodox" materials come from books written for Asia Minor. This is the locale for the Johannine materials (John's gospel, his three epistles, and Revelation). Many of Asia Minor's communities received Paul's letters. It was a vital center outside of Rome.

4. Marcion developed his system assuming the authority of certain works shared with orthodoxy, especially Luke and the Pauline epistles.

5. The earliest liturgical texts we possess come from Syria.

6. Pliny the Younger wrote to Trajan about a Christian community in Bythnia that worshipped Jesus, a practice that reflects orthodox belief there.(Epistles 10. 96-97)

So early expressions of orthodoxy were not as geographically isolated as Bauer argued.. As Turner noted in his critique of Bauer's ideas, Asia Minor as a region is “less promising" for Bauer's views than Edessa or Alexandria, which Turner had just finished critiquing at this point in his lecture. After Surveying Asia Minor, Turner stated “Nothing here supports the more daring features of Bauer’s reconstruction”.(p.63)

Turner,, H.E.W. 1954. The Pattern of Christian Truth: A Study of the Relations Between Orthodoxy and Heresy in the Early Church
The failure of the idea that Rome was prevalent in influence is important. If Rome did not drive the move to define orthodoxy more precisely in this earliest period, then the sense of orthodoxy may have been more widely distributed than Bauer argued.This may well explain orthodoxy's “success”. IT may be that it was widely distributed because of the nature of its roots, but more on that later. That there was contact with other churches with Rome is not surprising, because it was the culture’s dominant city, but this falls far short of ecclesiastical control. In fact, Turner notes occasions when Polycarp and Polycrates opposed efforts by Rome to step into their affairs. In his major study of Rome in the two centuries, Lampe explained an element of orthodoxy’s success there. It was simply the majority belief among the many opinions; it was more attractive to the masses (Lampe 1989, 323) So one of Bauer's two main pillars is made of sand.

Peter Lamoe’s survey of Asia Minor. I don’t feel like typing out those long titles German scholars or so fond of, and I don’t have the fonts needed.

The next section covers[/b] “ Does a regional survey show that the earliest origin and majority presence are with the alternative views?[/b] No evidence there either, that the orthodoxy wasn’t the prevalent view early on. Part of the reasons the ‘new school’ needs to fabricate a fiction re the Roman church’s dominating is so those in the modern era can feel free to rewrite Christianity to suit modern ‘values’ and claim a false academic cache in doing so. Of course, many already do that anyway, but the premises of the ‘new school’ require a more in-depth fiction.

You can find much more in Bock's book, The Missing Gospels; he goes book by book on all the main gnostic texts, among other issues, and does so without any evangelizing or proselytizing. The notion that Christian scholars aren't real scholars is rubbish.
 
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In other words, you are making an opinion you can't back up, and expect people to take you seriously. Just a hint, things don't work that way.

For you they don't; your agenda is merely astro-turfing, and making up your own 'facts'. Just a hint: almost nobody takes you seriously, including myself.
 
For you they don't; your agenda is merely astro-turfing, and making up your own 'facts'. Just a hint: almost nobody takes you seriously, including myself.

Somehow, I don't give a care what you claim. Honestly.. I don't. You do have gotten into cut/paste mode though..
 
Have you ever read "The Historical Jesus," by Gary Habermas?

And still the answer is 152; That remains as my opinion on the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
 
The orthodox teachings prevailed because they were the earliest and most widespread. The assorted gnostics, docetists, Arians, Marcionites, etc. were all minor cults and cranks and forgers themselves, and deserve little attention outsides of being historical curiosities. The followers of Walter Bauer and Elaine Pagels are just attention mongers promoting fads and their own careers, and from what I've read of Erhman and his books I don't see anything different going on in his case either. They're popular with endless cells of conspiritards and assorted agendas that want to invent a 'New Improved PC Jesus' who endorses such miscellaneous pastimes as anal sex, hippy festivals and mindless self-indulgence, and abortions; amazingly, this New Jesus is an advocate of everything fashionable and trendy with New Age fantasy around. Just coincidence, of course ...

Darrell Bock is the most credible scholar out there on the assorted 'missing Gospels', not Erhman or the various peddlers of the Bauer School of revisionism. This book is just one of many excellent critiques of that school and its fashion victims.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CPjUBQAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s

See also Darrell Bock's The Missing Gospels for another excellent survey of the many unsubstantiated claims made by the revisionists.


Yet another attack upon those who point out that there are problems with the 'history' of the world's largest religious group, by creating mythical "conspiritards (. . .) who endorses(sic) such miscellaneous pastimes as anal sex, hippy festivals and mindless self-indulgence,"


Darrell Bock is a man with the proper education and training in the subject of Biblical formation, who unfortunately values his personal religious beliefs more than a willingness to accept new knowledge which contradicts some of his tightly-held faith. He gladly accepts the mantle of "evangelical, Christian apologist"
 
I am very curious to know who exactly this Jesus man was and what he really said. However, I do not trust what is written in the Bible at all. So, that leaves me with a lot of unanswered questions. I guess I am fine with that for now.
 
Posts #40 and #41 appear to be copy and paste from one of the following links:

The oldest (2011) is from what reads as a radical Lutheran, anti-Roman Catholic site -- Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Discerning “Liberalism” Today: Darrell Bock on The Bauer Thesis, Part 2

05/20/2015 Farnsworth, Luther P posted the words found in #40 & 41. Click thru if for no other reason than to see the avatar for that person -- IS AMERICA THE BEAST OF REVELATION? - Page 6

Jun 30, 2015 Picaro post #66 "I'm an atheist, but I find the bible a truly great piece of work," God and the suffering of Jesus | Page 7 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum Post #67 has also the same words as found here in 40 and 41

One of those forum rules I strongly support -- When we use another person's words, we must give them credit
 
Posts #40 and #41 appear to be copy and paste from one of the following links:

The oldest (2011) is from what reads as a radical Lutheran, anti-Roman Catholic site -- Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Discerning “Liberalism” Today: Darrell Bock on The Bauer Thesis, Part 2

05/20/2015 Farnsworth, Luther P posted the words found in #40 & 41. Click thru if for no other reason than to see the avatar for that person -- IS AMERICA THE BEAST OF REVELATION? - Page 6

Jun 30, 2015 Picaro post #66 "I'm an atheist, but I find the bible a truly great piece of work," God and the suffering of Jesus | Page 7 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum Post #67 has also the same words as found here in 40 and 41

One of those forum rules I strongly support -- When we use another person's words, we must give them credit

I got the quotes directly from the book itself, and it's a 'copy and paste' from a much longer essay written by myself from my own files, and I rather like my 'Drink Coca Cola' watch-fob trinket from 1925 avatar, as it says volumes about how corporations view political ideologies, for one, and it also highlights how dim-witted some posters are that don't look closely at anything; it helps weed out morons and knee-jerk reactionaries, like yourself for instance, from serious posters and debaters. I'm also picaro at usmb, for that matter, so you have nothing again, other than the usual resorting to personal attacks and sniveling. I would post the entire essay but the board limits prevent that being worth the hassle, requiring multiple posts and edits, so I don't bother with long posts any more on this board.
 
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