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Walls Of Jericho; Explain to me or Wonder as I do...

Divergent

Divergent

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Why do Christians celebrate taking Jericho? The story seems morbid to me and I'm Christian..

They were scared to death of Christians so they put up the walls due to us Christians. Once us Christians broke down the wall, we killed every man, woman, child and animal except for a prostitute and her friends.....
 
Divergent said:
Why do Christians celebrate taking Jericho? The story seems morbid to me and I'm Christian..

They were scared to death of Christians so they put up the walls due to us Christians. Once us Christians broke down the wall, we killed every man, woman, child and animal except for a prostitute and her friends.....
Click to expand...

That happened in the Old Testament, way before Christianity.
I don't think we actually celebrate the actual destruction/slaughter, but that event is significant to us because it teaches about grace and salvation.


What should we learn from the walls of Jericho falling down?

The story of the walls of Jericho falling down, recorded in Joshua 6:1–27, is one that vividly demonstrates the miraculous power of God. But more than that, the utter destruction of Jericho teaches us several grand truths regarding God’s grace and our salvation.

The people of Israel had just crossed over the Jordan River into the land of Canaan (Joshua 3:14–17). This was the land of milk and honey God had promised to Abraham over 500 years earlier (Deuteronomy 6:3, 32:49). After spending forty difficult years wandering in the desert of Sinai, the people of Israel were now on the eastern banks of the Jordan. Their challenge: take the land of Canaan, the Promised Land. However, their first obstacle was the city of Jericho (Joshua 6:1), an unconquerable, walled city. Excavations there reveal that its fortifications featured a stone wall 11 feet high and 14 feet wide. At its top was a smooth stone slope, angling upward at 35 degrees for 35 feet, where it joined massive stone walls that towered even higher. It was virtually impregnable.

In ancient warfare such cities were either taken by assault or surrounded and the people starved into submission. Its invaders might try to weaken the stone walls with fire or by tunneling, or they might simply heap up a mountain of earth to serve as a ramp. Each of these methods of assault took weeks or months, and the attacking force usually suffered heavy losses. However, the strategy to conquer the city of Jericho was unique in two ways. First, the strategy was laid out by God Himself, and, second, the strategy was a seemingly foolish plan. God simply told Joshua to have the people to march silently around Jericho for six days, and then, after seven circuits on the seventh day, to shout.

Though it seemed foolish, Joshua followed God’s instructions to the letter. When the people did finally shout, the massive walls collapsed instantly, and Israel won an easy victory. In fact, God had given the city of Jericho to them before they even began to march around its walls (Joshua 6:2, 16). It was when the people of God, by faith, followed the commands of God that the walls of Jericho fell down (Joshua 6:20).

The apostle Paul assures us, “For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope” (Romans 15:4). The description of the complete obliteration of Jericho was recorded in Scripture in order to teach us several lessons. Most important is that obedience, even when God’s commands seem foolish, brings victory. When we are faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, we must learn that our Jericho victories are won only when our faithful obedience to God is complete (Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 2:3; 5:3).



There are other key lessons we should learn from this story. First, there is a vast difference between God’s way and the way of man (Isaiah 55:8–9). Though militarily it was irrational to assault Jericho in the manner it was done, we must never question God’s purpose or instructions. We must have faith that God is who He says He is and will do what He says He will do (Hebrews 10:23; 11:1).

Second, the power of God is supernatural, beyond our comprehension (Psalm 18:13–15; Daniel 4:35; Job 38:4–6). The walls of Jericho fell, and they fell instantly. The walls collapsed by the sheer power of God.

Third, there is an uncompromising relationship between the grace of God and our faith and obedience to Him. Scripture says, “By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days” (Hebrews 11:30).

More.....


What should we learn from the walls of Jericho falling down?
 
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Divergent said:
Why do Christians celebrate taking Jericho? The story seems morbid to me and I'm Christian..

They were scared to death of Christians so they put up the walls due to us Christians. Once us Christians broke down the wall, we killed every man, woman, child and animal except for a prostitute and her friends.....
Click to expand...
Google is your friend.
 
Divergent said:
Why do Christians celebrate taking Jericho? The story seems morbid to me and I'm Christian..

They were scared to death of Christians so they put up the walls due to us Christians. Once us Christians broke down the wall, we killed every man, woman, child and animal except for a prostitute and her friends.....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It didn't happen.
 
zyzygy said:
I wouldn't worry about it too much. It didn't happen.
Click to expand...

:roll:

....says someone who can't even give a single rational basis for atheism. :lol:




Anyway, you're wrong. Archeology found Jericho, and it's consistent with the Bible.



Lessons of Jericho

Jericho was once thought to be a “Bible problem” because of the seeming disagreement between archaeology and the Bible. When the archaeology is correctly interpreted, however, the opposite is the case.



The archaeological evidence supports the historical accuracy of the Biblical account in every detail.

Every aspect of the story that could possibly be verified by the findings of archaeology is, in fact, verified.




There are a number of theories as to how the walls of Jericho came down.

Both Garstang and Kenyon found evidence of earthquake activity at the time the city met its end. If God did use an earthquake to accomplish His purposes that day, it was still a miracle since it happened at precisely the right moment, and was manifested in such a way as to protect Rahab’s house.

No matter what agency God used, it was ultimately the faith of the Israelites that brought the walls down: “By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days” (Heb 11:30).

The Walls of Jericho




Remember Rahab? The one who helped Joshua, and in turn she and her relatives (everyone in her house), were spared.





 
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Such nonsense. Much of the early work came from fitting what was found into the biblical template. The dates don't match.
Earthquakes happen. Adding a God is superstition. Pointing to the "miraculous" fact that some walls still stood ignores the fact that not everything collapses in a quake, and especially not walls which have the extra support of having houses built up against them. You see things as you are, not as they are.

Addressing the OP, invasion and genocide were the way of the world back then, and Jericho was at the middle of a hotly contested region, since it had had walls since before the Bronze age.
 
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tosca1 said:
:roll:

<snip - superfluous words> Archeology found Jericho, and it's consistent with the Bible.



Lessons of Jericho

Jericho was once thought to be a “Bible problem” because of the seeming disagreement between archaeology and the Bible. When the archaeology is correctly interpreted, however, the opposite is the case.



The archaeological evidence supports the historical accuracy of the Biblical account in every detail.

Every aspect of the story that could possibly be verified by the findings of archaeology is, in fact, verified.




There are a number of theories as to how the walls of Jericho came down.

Both Garstang and Kenyon found evidence of earthquake activity at the time the city met its end. If God did use an earthquake to accomplish His purposes that day, it was still a miracle since it happened at precisely the right moment, and was manifested in such a way as to protect Rahab’s house.

No matter what agency God used, it was ultimately the faith of the Israelites that brought the walls down: “By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days” (Heb 11:30).

The Walls of Jericho


<removed unnecessary words and the apologetics video - as it contains little in the way of facts>
Click to expand...

First we have a problem with dating the existence of a people called "Israelites" as the most recent archaeology reports seem to show a religious group developing out of an earlier culture and not being an invading force but just societal changes within a group.

Second, the most recent findings show that there was little, if any, occupation of the site called Jericho at the time closest to the days of the Biblical story. Some academics have pushed the idea that whoever wrote the tale of Joshua and the Battle of Jericho was familiar with the ruins of the city and simply pasted their own explanation onto the ruins as yet another 'support' for their religious beliefs.

Rahab is just another fictional character in a text filled with myths, fantasies and history. Very little in the field of archaeology actually confirms much of the 'history' found in the Pentateuch. It is only after the 10th Century BCE that archaeology and the Old Testament begin to converge and even in that century and up to the Return from Babylon there is much which has found little confirmation.
 
Somerville said:
First we have a problem with dating the existence of a people called "Israelites" as the most recent archaeology reports seem to show a religious group developing out of an earlier culture and not being an invading force but just societal changes within a group.

Second, the most recent findings show that there was little, if any, occupation of the site called Jericho at the time closest to the days of the Biblical story. Some academics have pushed the idea that whoever wrote the tale of Joshua and the Battle of Jericho was familiar with the ruins of the city and simply pasted their own explanation onto the ruins as yet another 'support' for their religious beliefs.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that's merely your biased opinion.


The meticulous work of Kenyon showed that Jericho was indeed heavily fortified and that it had been burned by fire. Unfortunately, she misdated her finds, resulting in what seemed to be a discrepancy between the discoveries of archaeology and the Bible. She concluded that the Bronze Age city of Jericho was destroyed about 1550 BC by the Egyptians.

An in-depth analysis of the evidence, however, reveals that the destruction took place at the end of the 15th century BC (end of the Late Bronze I period), exactly when the Bible says the Conquest occurred (Wood 1990).


Kenyon’s work was the most detailed. On the west side of the tell, at the base of the retaining, or revetment, wall, she found,

fallen red bricks piling nearly to the top of the revetment. These probably came from the wall on the summit of the bank [and/or]…the brickwork above the revetment (Kenyon 1981: 110).


In other words, she found a heap of bricks from the fallen city walls! The renewed Italian-Palestinian excavations found exactly the same thing at the southern end of the mound in 1997.

The Walls of Jericho




Rahab is just another fictional character in a text filled with myths, fantasies and history.

Very little in the field of archaeology actually confirms much of the 'history' found in the Pentateuch. It is only after the 10th Century BCE that archaeology and the Old Testament begin to converge and even in that century and up to the Return from Babylon there is much which has found little confirmation.
Click to expand...

Your opinion doesn't relate to reason.
There are several archeological discoveries that confirm the historicity of the Bible. But we're not talking about them.
We're talking about Jericho.

If you'd read the story at all....you'll understand what the discoveries below mean, as related to the story of Rahab.


According to the Bible, Rahab’s house was incorporated into the fortification system (Jos 2:15). If the walls fell, how was her house spared? As you recall, the spies had instructed Rahab to bring her family into her house and they would be rescued. When the Israelites stormed the city, Rahab and her family were saved as promised (Jos 6:17, 22–23). At the north end of the tell of Jericho, archaeologists made some astounding discoveries that seem to relate to Rahab.

The German excavation of 1907-1909 found that on the north a short stretch of the lower city wall did not fall as everywhere else. A portion of that mudbrick wall was still standing to a height of 8 ft (Sellin and Watzinger 1973: 58). What is more, there were houses built against the wall! It is quite possible that this is where Rahab’s house was located. Since the city wall formed the back wall of the houses, the spies could have readily escaped. From this location on the north side of the city, it was only a short distance to the hills of the Judean wilderness where the spies hid for three days (Jos 2:16, 22). Real estate values must have been low here, since the houses were positioned on the embankment between the upper and lower city walls. Not the best place to live in time of war! This area was no doubt the overflow from the upper city and the poor part of town, perhaps even a slum district.

After the city walls fell, how could the Israelites surmount the 12–15 foot high retaining wall at the base of the tell? Excavations have shown that the bricks from the collapsed walls fell in such a way as to form a ramp against the retaining wall. The Israelites could merely climb up over the pile of rubble, up the embankment, and enter the city. The Bible is very precise in its description of how the Israelites entered the city: “The people went up into the city, every man straight before him” (Jos 6:20, KJV). The Israelites had to go up, and that is what archaeology has revealed. They had to go from ground level at the base of the tell to the top of the rampart in order to enter the city.


The Walls of Jericho
 
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Believers Score in Battle Over the Battle of Jericho

After years of doubt among archeologists, a new analysis of excavations has yielded a wide range of evidence supporting the biblical account about the fall of Jericho. It may well be true that, in the words of the old spiritual, ''Joshua fit the battle of Jericho, and the walls come tumbling down.''

'When we compare the archeological evidence at Jericho with the biblical narrative describing the Israelite destruction of Jericho, we find a quite remarkable agreement,'' Dr. Bryant G. Wood, an archeologist at the University of Toronto, wrote in the March-April issue of Biblical Archeology Review.

Scholars were guarded in their reaction to Dr. Wood's conclusions.

Dr. Lawrence Stager, professor of archeology in Israel at Harvard University, said: ''On the whole, the archeological assessment is not unreasonable. There is evidence of destruction, and the date isn't too far wrong.''


Believers Score in Battle Over the Battle of Jericho - NYTimes.com
 
Divergent said:
Why do Christians celebrate taking Jericho?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that Christians do. Is there a holiday somewhere that I'm not aware of?

Dirvergent said:
They were scared to death of Christians so they put up the walls due to us Christians. Once us Christians broke down the wall, we killed every man, woman, child and animal except for a prostitute and her friends.....
Click to expand...

No, they weren't scared of Christians because Christians didn't even exist yet. There was no Christian involvement in the Jericho incident.
 
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CrabCake said:
No, they weren't scared of Christians because Christians didn't even exist yet. There was no Christian involvement in the Jericho incident.
Click to expand...

Good point. Actually nobody was involved. It's just an old goat herder's story.
 
Divergent said:
Why do Christians celebrate taking Jericho? The story seems morbid to me and I'm Christian..

They were scared to death of Christians so they put up the walls due to us Christians. Once us Christians broke down the wall, we killed every man, woman, child and animal except for a prostitute and her friends.....
Click to expand...

Ohh, where to begin...
Never mind. Don't ask why, just accept. That's all your religion can offer regarding the Old Testament.
 
tosca1 said:
That happened in the Old Testament, way before Christianity.
I don't think we actually celebrate the actual destruction/slaughter, but that event is significant to us because it teaches about grace and salvation.


What should we learn from the walls of Jericho falling down?

The story of the walls of Jericho falling down, recorded in Joshua 6:1–27, is one that vividly demonstrates the miraculous power of God. But more than that, the utter destruction of Jericho teaches us several grand truths regarding God’s grace and our salvation.

The people of Israel had just crossed over the Jordan River into the land of Canaan (Joshua 3:14–17). This was the land of milk and honey God had promised to Abraham over 500 years earlier (Deuteronomy 6:3, 32:49). After spending forty difficult years wandering in the desert of Sinai, the people of Israel were now on the eastern banks of the Jordan. Their challenge: take the land of Canaan, the Promised Land. However, their first obstacle was the city of Jericho (Joshua 6:1), an unconquerable, walled city. Excavations there reveal that its fortifications featured a stone wall 11 feet high and 14 feet wide. At its top was a smooth stone slope, angling upward at 35 degrees for 35 feet, where it joined massive stone walls that towered even higher. It was virtually impregnable.

In ancient warfare such cities were either taken by assault or surrounded and the people starved into submission. Its invaders might try to weaken the stone walls with fire or by tunneling, or they might simply heap up a mountain of earth to serve as a ramp. Each of these methods of assault took weeks or months, and the attacking force usually suffered heavy losses. However, the strategy to conquer the city of Jericho was unique in two ways. First, the strategy was laid out by God Himself, and, second, the strategy was a seemingly foolish plan. God simply told Joshua to have the people to march silently around Jericho for six days, and then, after seven circuits on the seventh day, to shout.

Though it seemed foolish, Joshua followed God’s instructions to the letter. When the people did finally shout, the massive walls collapsed instantly, and Israel won an easy victory. In fact, God had given the city of Jericho to them before they even began to march around its walls (Joshua 6:2, 16). It was when the people of God, by faith, followed the commands of God that the walls of Jericho fell down (Joshua 6:20).

The apostle Paul assures us, “For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope” (Romans 15:4). The description of the complete obliteration of Jericho was recorded in Scripture in order to teach us several lessons. Most important is that obedience, even when God’s commands seem foolish, brings victory. When we are faced with seemingly insurmountable odds, we must learn that our Jericho victories are won only when our faithful obedience to God is complete (Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 2:3; 5:3).



There are other key lessons we should learn from this story. First, there is a vast difference between God’s way and the way of man (Isaiah 55:8–9). Though militarily it was irrational to assault Jericho in the manner it was done, we must never question God’s purpose or instructions. We must have faith that God is who He says He is and will do what He says He will do (Hebrews 10:23; 11:1).

Second, the power of God is supernatural, beyond our comprehension (Psalm 18:13–15; Daniel 4:35; Job 38:4–6). The walls of Jericho fell, and they fell instantly. The walls collapsed by the sheer power of God.

Third, there is an uncompromising relationship between the grace of God and our faith and obedience to Him. Scripture says, “By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days” (Hebrews 11:30).

More.....


What should we learn from the walls of Jericho falling down?
Click to expand...

Did God really make the earth stop rotating?
 
Joshua fit the battle of Jericho, Jericho, Jericho,
Joshua fit the battle of Jericho, and the walls came tumblin' down.

It's another tall tale written down centuries before Christ. That's all it is.

Well, that and a folk song.
 
Grand Mal said:
Did God really make the earth stop rotating?
Click to expand...


Wasn't it the sun that was commanded to stand still?


Joshua 10:12-14
Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:
Sun, stand still over Gibeon; and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the people had revenge upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Jasher?
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hastened to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded a voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Joshua fit the battle of Jericho, Jericho, Jericho,
Joshua fit the battle of Jericho, and the walls came tumblin' down.

It's another tall tale written down centuries before Christ. That's all it is.

Well, that and a folk song.
Click to expand...

I like those stories. Not many cultures have had the benefit of a long history of literacy to record their ancient mythology. I especially like the creation myth in the Old Testament. But damn, in a reasonable world the last person who literally believed those stories would have died centuries ago.
 
tosca1 said:
Wasn't it the sun that was commanded to stand still?


Joshua 10:12-14
Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:
Sun, stand still over Gibeon; and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon. So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the people had revenge upon their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Jasher?
So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hastened to go down for about a whole day. And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded a voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
Click to expand...

But when that was written people thought the sun revolved around the earth. Now we know that the earth revolves around the sun.
Don't we?
 
Grand Mal said:
But when that was written people thought the sun revolved around the earth. Now we know that the earth revolves around the sun.
Don't we?
Click to expand...

Oh, not everyone:

True science and the Bible teach an earth-centered solar system - and universe. Since many people in this "modern" age do not accept the Bible as authoritative, we will look at just a few of the many proofs from science. -Not make-believe "science", but physics and math. (You can look at the "Genesis" pages on this site for more of what the Bible says. The Bible is not a "science" textbook, but it is the word of God, so we want your faith to be strengthened by seeing that it does not deny reality but, rather, confirms truth. And geocentricity is a truth.)
Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether to file this one under "some people will believe anything" or under "you can prove anything, however absurd, by finding the proper link on the internet."

Maybe both.
 
Grand Mal said:
But when that was written people thought the sun revolved around the earth. Now we know that the earth revolves around the sun.
Don't we?
Click to expand...



This is a very long article.


The language that Joshua uses in addressing the sun and moon is the language of ordinary observation still used today in the scientific age. Probably Joshua and his contemporaries thought of the sun as moving around the earth, but his language should not be pressed to construct a "view of the universe" any more than should todays reference to the rising and setting of the sun (Marten Woodstra, The Book of Joshua, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans: 1981, p. 175).

Some people feel that Joshua made a scientifically accurate request.

We might say, "How little Joshua knew." But he knew his God! He knew that God had promised to go before His people to fight their battles and give them victory (Joshua 10:8). And in this battle he saw victory in its grasp, but time was running out. If he didnt conquer the enemy before dark, they would regroup and attack Israel the next day.

Knowing his God, his Gods power, and his Gods promise, he called out to God for help, and in the presence of all Israel, he commanded the "sun to stand still." But the sun was already standing still, Joshua. It is the earth that moves, not the sun. Why didnt Joshua cry out, "Earth quit moving," or "Earth, slow down your spinning on your axis to prolong time."

Joshua had no idea that his command slowed down 6.6 sextrillion tons of spinning gravel and water to give Israel victory over her enemies. But Joshua did know something that God had revealed to him. Over 3,000 years ago he said something that would have met the approval of todays scientific establishment.
His command in the Hebrew language was not "Sun, stand thou still," but "Sun, cease acting, or "Sun, stop working." It was then that the gravitational pull of the sun affected the earth. It was then the earth began to slow down and the day was lengthened (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1983 p. 124).

It is not necessary to assume Joshua was scientifically sophisticated. It is more likely that God honored the spirit of his request than to assume Joshua had some scientific insight that was not shared by the people of his day.



Conclusion

We have seen that there are a variety of explanations to Joshuas long day without having to admit to scientific error. Although several of these views are possible, the theory that the sun actually slowed down its movement seems to be the best way of looking at the evidence. Leon Wood writes:



https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_625.cfm
 
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As a Christian, the main thing I "celebrate" about the story of Jericho is that the book of Joshua is a place in the OT that I can point to as an appearance of Jesus prior to the NT
 
tosca1 said:
This is a very long article.

..................It was then that the gravitational pull of the sun affected the earth. It was then the earth began to slow down and the day was lengthened (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1983 p. 124)..................


Conclusion

We have seen that there are a variety of explanations to Joshuas long day without having to admit to scientific error. Although several of these views are possible, the theory that the sun actually slowed down its movement seems to be the best way of looking at the evidence.
Click to expand...
awfercryinoutloud.

Whole thing never happened but in the grasping at any straw we gotta even consider this puerile crap.:roll:
 
tosca1 said:
This is a very long article.


The language that Joshua uses in addressing the sun and moon is the language of ordinary observation still used today in the scientific age. Probably Joshua and his contemporaries thought of the sun as moving around the earth, but his language should not be pressed to construct a "view of the universe" any more than should todays reference to the rising and setting of the sun (Marten Woodstra, The Book of Joshua, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans: 1981, p. 175).

Some people feel that Joshua made a scientifically accurate request.

We might say, "How little Joshua knew." But he knew his God! He knew that God had promised to go before His people to fight their battles and give them victory (Joshua 10:8). And in this battle he saw victory in its grasp, but time was running out. If he didnt conquer the enemy before dark, they would regroup and attack Israel the next day.

Knowing his God, his Gods power, and his Gods promise, he called out to God for help, and in the presence of all Israel, he commanded the "sun to stand still." But the sun was already standing still, Joshua. It is the earth that moves, not the sun. Why didnt Joshua cry out, "Earth quit moving," or "Earth, slow down your spinning on your axis to prolong time."

Joshua had no idea that his command slowed down 6.6 sextrillion tons of spinning gravel and water to give Israel victory over her enemies. But Joshua did know something that God had revealed to him. Over 3,000 years ago he said something that would have met the approval of todays scientific establishment.
His command in the Hebrew language was not "Sun, stand thou still," but "Sun, cease acting, or "Sun, stop working." It was then that the gravitational pull of the sun affected the earth. It was then the earth began to slow down and the day was lengthened (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1983 p. 124).

It is not necessary to assume Joshua was scientifically sophisticated. It is more likely that God honored the spirit of his request than to assume Joshua had some scientific insight that was not shared by the people of his day.



Conclusion

We have seen that there are a variety of explanations to Joshuas long day without having to admit to scientific error. Although several of these views are possible, the theory that the sun actually slowed down its movement seems to be the best way of looking at the evidence. Leon Wood writes:



https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_625.cfm
Click to expand...

Seriously? You accept what that guy says? That's the wrong answer. You either believe what's in the Bible or you don't and whatever some blogger has to say about what God really meant should be irrelevant. Honestly, that, what you cited, is one of the most paper-thin, trivializing, uncaringly inaccurate apologies I've ever read.
 
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