PP videos/Islam

Josie said:

That's not a list of actual quoted verses -- it's someone interpretation of what's in the Bible. Lame.

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Uh, hate to break it to you...but the bible is all interpretations, written by man. You haven't figured that out?

Josie said:

Good one. Once again, I don't condone or support anyone being violent against people they disagree with. Can you tell me why you keep harping on this? I won't suddenly change my mind, ya know.

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Just pointing out your abject hypocrisy. You claim to be a christian, but you pick and choose what you believe in, how blasphemous of you.

PoS said:

Can you quote chapter and verse that he said not to include those things?

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Surely you're familiar with the famous incident involving the woman about to be stoned for adultery?

There are numerous other examples of Christ basically straight out telling people that the more finicky elements of the Old Testament Law are no longer necessary.

beefheart said:

So...you are saying, you ignore your god's word in the OT.

How convenient to pick and choose. Other christians follow the OT and the NT, are you better than them? Do you see flaws and errors in the bible?

You are painting yourself into a corner, its hilarious.

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Not at all. What's hilarious is that you keep asking the same question over and over and over and over again thinking I'll come up with a different answer. And then you try to put words in my mouth, twist my words and assume things about me. I think we all can see who's in the corner here.

Gathomas88 said:

B) So what? It's not exactly calling for non-believers to be killed and conquered. You just don't like it because it clashes with your own values.

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Really?

Josie said:

Not at all. What's hilarious is that you keep asking the same question over and over and over and over again thinking I'll come up with a different answer. And then you try to put words in my mouth, twist my words and assume things about me. I think we all can see who's in the corner here.

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What is hilarious is your equivocation on your beliefs that you alternatively wear on your shoulder, and dismiss, as you see fit.

Gathomas88 said:

A) That's a pretty terrible misrepresentation of what Christ actually said and meant by those statements.

B) So what? It's not exactly calling for non-believers to be killed and conquered. You just don't like it because it clashes with your own values.

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Luke 19.27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

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So yeah, the Bible isn't innocent, and you can't just say it's the old testament. Not discounting the awful things said in the Koran, but your bronze age religion isn't a "special little flower."

And the anti-family stuff in the Bible is so incredibly ****ed up. It's not a bad interpretation. That's just what it freaking says.

beefheart said:

Just pointing out your abject hypocrisy. You claim to be a christian, but you pick and choose what you believe in, how blasphemous of you.

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I'm sorry you don't understand basic Bible history that I learned when I was 7. I've tried to explain it to you, but it doesn't fit into your little agenda here so you're not listening.

Your Star said:

Luke 19.27

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Is a parable. A symbolic story, meant to teach a greater lesson.

It's not a literal command.

And the anti-family stuff in the Bible is so incredibly ****ed up.

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It's not "anti-family," first off. It's telling people that, in basically all things, God comes first. That is true.

Josie said:

I'm sorry you don't understand basic Bible history that I learned when I was 7. I've tried to explain it to you, but it doesn't fit into your little agenda here so you're not listening.

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I learned it too. Only difference is that I realized it was all BS.

You think you can pick and choose what to believe and what not to. You haven't demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, when you go to your church, do they only have the NT there?

Josie said:

This is an off-shoot of the other thread that got out of hand:




Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (8:387)- Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

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So is there any way that Christians could sneak into place like Palestine, Iran, or Saudi and carry out terrorist attacks? that is their preferred method. The days of nation states warring among one another is over. There will not be another war like ww2.

Gathomas88 said:

Is a parable. A symbolic story, meant to teach a greater lesson.

It's not a literal command.



It's not "anti-family," first off. It's telling people that, in basically all things, God comes first. That is true.

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Ah....a parable....the way to dismiss something and reinterpret what you don't want to believe.

How awfully convenient.

Your Star said:

Luke 19.27



So yeah, the Bible isn't innocent, and you can't just say it's the old testament. Not discounting the awful things said in the Koran, but your bronze age religion isn't a "special little flower."

And the anti-family stuff in the Bible is so incredibly ****ed up. It's not a bad interpretation. That's just what it freaking says.

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YS -- c'mon. Luke 19:27 is a parable about a man who declared himself to be King and was a rotten one. This wasn't a command from Jesus to kill people. Jeez.

Gathomas88 said:

A) That's a pretty terrible misrepresentation of what Christ actually said and meant by those statements.

B) So what? It's not exactly calling for non-believers to be killed and conquered. You just don't like it because it clashes with your own values.

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LOL. The "values" it teaches are sick.

Gathomas88 said:

Is a parable. A symbolic story, meant to teach a greater lesson.

It's not a literal command.



It's not "anti-family," first off. It's telling people that, in basically all things, God comes first. That is true.

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LOL. Everything's a "parable" when it makes christians look bad. Why don't you give muslims the same slack?

beefheart said:

I learned it too. Only difference is that I realized it was all BS.

You think you can pick and choose what to believe and what not to. You haven't demonstrated otherwise.

BTW, when you go to your church, do they only have the NT there?

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I'm sorry you still don't understand that the OT was a covenant between God and THE JEWISH PEOPLE. How many times do I have to repeat it?

And, for starters, the NT isn't AT the church. LOL! People bring their Bibles with them to read and study. We study both parts of the Bible, but the majority of the lessons are from the NT. Probably 60-40

beefheart said:

Ah....a parable....the way to dismiss something and reinterpret what you don't want to believe.

How awfully convenient.

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Or it really is a parable -- clearly outlined and stated by Jesus Christ himself in the preceding verses.

Gathomas88 said:

Nope. Because early Christians, and most importantly, the Apostles, believed that to be true as well.

They just didn't believe in killing people over it. As Christ said, "let he without sin cast the first stone."

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Y'know whenever I've pointed out that the hatred of abortion and homosexuals, iirc, are OT and hence not Christian at all, but Jewish, everyone quotes me a passage where Jesus says essentially, "add what I'm saying to your biblical knowledge, but don't ignore what god, my father has already instructed," do you know which passage that is?

Gathomas88 said:

Surely you're familiar with the famous incident involving the woman about to be stoned for adultery?

There are numerous other examples of Christ basically straight out telling people that the more finicky elements of the Old Testament Law are no longer necessary.

​

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Even though its a parable and he doesnt specifically command others not to stone her, I'll give you that. Now where in his teachings does he say not to kill non-believers or gays?

Gathomas88 said:

Is a parable. A symbolic story, meant to teach a greater lesson.

It's not a literal command.

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Yeah, sure the same can be said about the Koran.

It's not "anti-family," first off. It's telling people that, in basically all things, God comes first. That is true.

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It is anti-family. That is the definition of anti-family. Of breaking families apart, of putting something else before the love you have for your family. And that whole notion is incredibly ****ed up. People should come first. People are real; people are here; people should be our priority. Not some made up god we think we might be pleasing by doing whatever ridiculous thing one wants to do for one's made up god. That kind of thinking leads the terror attacks in the name of these gods. Because their god is the priority, not the people they are killing. That's the problem with Islam, that's the problem with Christianity, that's the problem with all religions.

People should come first, period.

beefheart said:

Ah....a parable....the way to dismiss something and reinterpret what you don't want to believe.

How awfully convenient.

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No. That's what Christ himself flat out said it was.

He made up a little story on the spot, because he intended for people to guess at its greater meaning.

A great lord (meant to represent Christ) leaves his lands so that he can inherit an even greater Kingdom (heaven). While he is gone, he leaves three servants in charge (Christians), and leaves them all with ten gold coins (the word of Christ). He commands them to invest those coins while he is gone, so the amount will grow.

While he is gone, the first servant invests his money wisely, and doubles the amount. The second also increases his, but not by as much. The third just buries his and does not grow it at all. Also while the lord is gone, a large number of peasants rebel, and say that they do not want to be ruled by the lord (they are meant to represent people who reject the word of Christ).

When the lord (again, Christ, this time in reference to the Second Coming) returns, he rewards the first servant with several cities to rule. He also rewards the second, but not as much. The third is punished for not accumulating more money, by having the ten coins he was originally given taken away. The lord orders the rebellious peasants executed for treason (i.e. sent to Hell). That last line is what YS quoted.

Again, the whole thing is meant to be symbolic. It's talking about Christ's death (the lord's going away), the responsibility of Christians to spread his word in his absence (the three servants and the ten coins), and what will happen when he eventually returns on judgement day (those who have served him well will be rewarded, those who have rejected him will be punished).

Christ was no more telling Christians to kill non-believers than he was telling them to invest gold coins.

Josie said:

YS -- c'mon. Luke 19:27 is a parable about a man who declared himself to be King and was a rotten one. This wasn't a command from Jesus to kill people. Jeez.

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One of my big questions is why isn't the bible still be written? We live and try to survive so why stop?

Your Star said:

Yeah, sure the same can be said about the Koran.



It is anti-family. That is the definition of anti-family. Of breaking families apart, of putting something else before the love you have for your family. And that whole notion is incredibly ****ed up. People should come first. People are real; people are here; people should be our priority. Not some made up god we think we might be pleasing by doing whatever ridiculous thing one wants to do for one's made up god. That kind of thinking leads the terror attacks in the name of these gods. Because their god is the priority, not the people they are killing. That's the problem with Islam, that's the problem with Christianity, that's the problem with all religions.

People should come first, period.

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You have a really warped view of Christianity.

Putting God first causes you to love your spouse more. Putting God first makes you want to be a better father or mother. Putting God first creates a home filled with love, honor, loyalty and peace.

I'm sorry for whatever you've experienced in your life to make you think people who put God first are even in the same ballpark as jihadists.

Josie said:

This is an off-shoot of the other thread that got out of hand:




Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (47:3-4) - "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost."

Hadith:

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Bukhari (8:387)- Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

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The literary versus kinda sucks compared to the christian bible doesnt it? I mean these people really are savages.

On that depressing note, I have to sleep at some point tonight.

Goodnight everyone. Last one out - turn off the light, please.