• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Thomas Aquinisas First way. Argument from Motion

RAMOSS

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
62,963
Reaction score
27,366
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Thomas Aquinas' first way is the "Argument from Motion". It is as follows

[quote='Thomas Aquinas"]
The First Way: Argument from Motion
1 Our senses prove that some things are in motion.
2 Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.
3 Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.
4 Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).
5 Therefore nothing can move itself.
6 Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.
7 The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.
8 Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
[/quote]

Is this argument reasonable and rational? What are the weaknesses of this argument? What are it's strengths? Do you find this argument convincing, if so, why? If not, why not?
 
Thomas Aquinas' first way is the "Argument from Motion". It is as follows



Is this argument reasonable and rational? What are the weaknesses of this argument? What are it's strengths? Do you find this argument convincing, if so, why? If not, why not?

I like the argument, which is of course a combination of Empiricism, logic, and intuition.

Empiricism being inductive like intuition is not a deductive formal proof and as such these arguments have weaknesses, sure.

Logic whether deductive or inductive is rational however and this is the preferred way of thinking in the modern world.

Modernizing Aquinas' first proof, I would frame as follows.

We can measure the Sun moving through space in its revolution about the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, and we can measure the Earth moving about the Sun, and the Moon about the Earth, and asteroids and comets moving in space above us.

These things all move.

Something must have put these each into motion, together with all the other galaxies of the Universe.

This Something is God.

I like the argument. It is Empirical, inductive, and logical.

It resonates with me.

I believe it is valid philosophically.

It is not scientific PROOF. But philosophy is not science. Philosophy is not religion either.

Science, philosophy, and religion are separate.

You can only successfully criticize this proof using skepticism.

And skepticism has been invalidated since Descartes.
 
Last edited:
This is the problems that I see with the "Argument from motion"

First of all, it assumes that 'rest' is the default condition of things. This can not be shown to be true, and indeed, there is nothing we can look at this is totally at rest. Motion is basically how things are relative to each other, This argument is based on the Aristotle's concept of the Aether, which has been proven to be false.

So, it starts off with assumptions that not only haven't been shown to be true, but have actually been shown to be false.

Next, it assumes that there is one 'unmoved mover', and then labels this 'unmoved mover' as god. It makes the assumption that there can only be one source for making things move, and then uses a leap of logic to label this as god. This is the logical fallacy of special pleading, following by 'defining' God into place, without giving any reason to call it God.

All in all, it is not convincing, because of not only the logical flaws, but because the axiom on which ti is based has been positively proven to be false.
 
This is the problems that I see with the "Argument from motion"

First of all, it assumes that 'rest' is the default condition of things. This can not be shown to be true, and indeed, there is nothing we can look at this is totally at rest. Motion is basically how things are relative to each other, This argument is based on the Aristotle's concept of the Aether, which has been proven to be false.

So, it starts off with assumptions that not only haven't been shown to be true, but have actually been shown to be false.

Next, it assumes that there is one 'unmoved mover', and then labels this 'unmoved mover' as god. It makes the assumption that there can only be one source for making things move, and then uses a leap of logic to label this as god. This is the logical fallacy of special pleading, following by 'defining' God into place, without giving any reason to call it God.

All in all, it is not convincing, because of not only the logical flaws, but because the axiom on which ti is based has been positively proven to be false.

If rest is NOT the default condition of things, then SOME ENERGY must have been needed to place everything in the Universe in motion.

That Energy is God.

But even by skipping over getting to the motion phase, you are ignoring the creation phase.

If anything exists, something must have created it, because you did not create yourself nor did I create myself, nor could I create you, nor could you create me.

That Something is God.

So for anything to exist, there must have been a creation. And that requires a Creator.

And for everything created to enter into any motion relative to the rest of creation, that requires a prime mover. And that requires a God.

Then you still need to deal with the esthetics, which points definitively to an Artistic Artificer. That Artificer is God.

And you have to deal with the apparent purposefulness, and that requires a God too.

And because cogito ergo sum, I exist, and since I did not create myself, some kind creator must have created me. That requires a God too as Descartes the accomplished mathematician pointed out.

You can be as skeptical as you want, but skepticism is obsolete since Descartes.

Because you cannot doubt that you are thinking therefore you cannot doubt that you exist. And that requires a God.
 
Last edited:
It is balderdash. "Potential Motion" is meaningless.
 
If rest is NOT the default condition of things, then SOME ENERGY must have been needed to place everything in the Universe in motion.

That Energy is God.

And how do you know that? Isn't that known as 'begging the question"?
But even by skipping over getting to the motion phase, you are ignoring the creation phase.

Can you show that the conditions that allowed the big bang to start were not eternal , and the energy was not eternal?? How would you know that?

If anything exists, something must have created it, because you did not create yourself nor did I create myself, nor could I create you, nor could you create me.

That Something is God.

Why is that god? That is the logical fallacy of 'begging the question. That is assuming that energy was 'created'.. and there was an agency for that creation. It then
labels that agency God'. How do you know that energy was not in and of itself eternal.

So for anything to exist, there must have been a creation. And that requires a Creator.

WHy?? How do you know that?? Can you show that to be true? Isn't that an equivocation of the word 'creation'?? According to the laws of thermodynamics,matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed, but merely change form. Can you show that this hasn't always been the case?

And for everything created to enter into any motion relative to the rest of creation, that requires a prime mover. And that requires a God.

Then you still need to deal with the esthetics, which points definitively to an Artistic Artificer. That Artificer is God.

And you have to deal with the apparent purposefulness, and that requires a God too.

And because cogito ergo sum, I exist, and since I did not create myself, some kind creator must have created me. That requires a God too as Descartes the accomplished mathematician pointed out.

You can be as skeptical as you want, but skepticism is obsolete since Descartes.

Because you cannot doubt that you are thinking therefore you cannot doubt that you exist. And that requires a God.

You keep on saying that.. but.. that seems to be a leap of logic. You have not ruled out that matter/energy is in and of itself eternal. And, if everything needs are creation, where did the creator come from, since it would need a creator too. That is the logical fallacy of 'special pleading'. It is also assuming that there is only 1 thing that 'does not need a creator'. Can you show that to be true? How do you know that??
 
And how do you know that? Isn't that known as 'begging the question"?


Can you show that the conditions that allowed the big bang to start were not eternal , and the energy was not eternal?? How would you know that?



Why is that god? That is the logical fallacy of 'begging the question. That is assuming that energy was 'created'.. and there was an agency for that creation. It then
labels that agency God'. How do you know that energy was not in and of itself eternal.



WHy?? How do you know that?? Can you show that to be true? Isn't that an equivocation of the word 'creation'?? According to the laws of thermodynamics,matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed, but merely change form. Can you show that this hasn't always been the case?



You keep on saying that.. but.. that seems to be a leap of logic. You have not ruled out that matter/energy is in and of itself eternal. And, if everything needs are creation, where did the creator come from, since it would need a creator too. That is the logical fallacy of 'special pleading'. It is also assuming that there is only 1 thing that 'does not need a creator'. Can you show that to be true? How do you know that??

Your mistakes generally speaking Ramos are similar to Frank Apisa's -- mixing scientific theories and hypothesis with philosophy.

That's sophistry.

He is really pissed at me now for pointing out his fallacies in this respect.

With science on the left of an imaginary spectrum and religion on the right of it, Bertrand Russell puts philosophy in the middle of the other two.

I put philosophy on top of the other two at the apex of the prism from whence the spectrum illuminates forth.

Philosophy is a way of thinking.

Philosophy involves speculation of open issues that have not yet been researched by science and proved Empirically to determine first if they can or cannot be researched and whether or not we have the tools to properly research them.

You on the other hand are morphing unproved science with philosophy and then shifting the burden away from yourself to make someone else prove you wrong.

You are wrong because of what you are trying to do.

Nobody has to prove you wrong simply because it is readily apparent that what you are doing is sophist AND wrong.
 
Your mistakes generally speaking Ramos are similar to Frank Apisa's -- mixing scientific theories and hypothesis with philosophy.

That's sophistry.

He is really pissed at me now for pointing out his fallacies in this respect.

With science on the left of an imaginary spectrum and religion on the right of it, Bertrand Russell puts philosophy in the middle of the other two.

I put philosophy on top of the other two at the apex of the prism from whence the spectrum illuminates forth.

Philosophy is a way of thinking.

Philosophy involves speculation of open issues that have not yet been researched by science and proved Empirically to determine first if they can or cannot be researched and whether or not we have the tools to properly research them.

You on the other hand are morphing unproved science with philosophy and then shifting the burden away from yourself to make someone else prove you wrong.

You are wrong because of what you are trying to do.

Nobody has to prove you wrong simply because it is readily apparent that what you are doing is sophist AND wrong.

yet, you make claims you can not show to be true or accurate, nor do you give any reason to reject alternatives. How does that make what you say at all valuable, except to make the logical fallacy of 'argument from personal belief'? Hand waving the points away doesn't make those points any less valid. It just means you do not have answer to those points. You can make claims that' you are wrong', but you can't show it more than a very poorly thought out opinion. I think that sufficiently demonstrates that the area of metaphysics known as theological apologists is totally and utterly worthless
 
yet, you make claims you can not show to be true or accurate, nor do you give any reason to reject alternatives. How does that make what you say at all valuable, except to make the logical fallacy of 'argument from personal belief'? Hand waving the points away doesn't make those points any less valid. It just means you do not have answer to those points. You can make claims that' you are wrong', but you can't show it more than a very poorly thought out opinion. I think that sufficiently demonstrates that the area of metaphysics known as theological apologists is totally and utterly worthless

So what are you asking me to do? Prove speculation?

I'm not talking about personal belief -- that would be religion.

Can't you tell the difference between religion, science, and philosophy yet ???
 
So what are you asking me to do? Prove speculation?

I am asking you to show how you eliminate all the other possibilities, so it makes your claims not to be speculation. You make a declaration. How do you know what you declare is true? There are other possibilities. What is the process you go through to eliminate that.

Also, explain the leaps of logic. Explain WHY you get to a point, and call it God, without it being begging the question.
 
Thomas Aquinas' first way is the "Argument from Motion". It is as follows



Is this argument reasonable and rational? What are the weaknesses of this argument? What are it's strengths? Do you find this argument convincing, if so, why? If not, why not?

8 is a fail. Everyone understands no such thing.
 
I am asking you to show how you eliminate all the other possibilities, so it makes your claims not to be speculation. You make a declaration. How do you know what you declare is true? There are other possibilities. What is the process you go through to eliminate that.

Also, explain the leaps of logic. Explain WHY you get to a point, and call it God, without it being begging the question.

It clearly sounds like you are forcing the issue by shifting the burden.

And that is a clear cut fallacy.

You lose.

End of debate.
 
Jimbo you gots ta give reasons fo when ya says something ya's can't just says somethin an think das it das all you gotta do.

8 Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

I don't understand this to be god. I am part of everyone. Therefore the statement is a fail.

Actually, #1 is also suspect.

1 Our senses prove that some things are in motion.

One would think that something other than our senses would be needed to prove something.

Senses give us observations. Observations lead to hypotheses. Hypotheses require proof before they become conclusions.
 
Last edited:
It clearly sounds like you are forcing the issue by shifting the burden.

And that is a clear cut fallacy.

You lose.

End of debate.

How very ironic. You make the claims. When asked for you to support your claims, you declare I am shifting the burden of proof.
 
How very ironic. You make the claims. When asked for you to support your claims, you declare I am shifting the burden of proof.

Shifting the burden is still shifting the burden.

You may not like Aquinas' proofs but they are still valid philosophy.

In fact they are even more valid now that we can PROVE everything in space is in motion.
 
8 Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

I don't understand this to be god. I am part of everyone. Therefore the statement is a fail.

So ignorance being bliss is the basis of your argument then ??
 
So ignorance being bliss is the basis of your argument then ??

I said that?

I said everyone is all encompassing. Just one naysayer makes the statement false.

There are many, many, more than 1 naysayer.
 
Shifting the burden is still shifting the burden.

You may not like Aquinas' proofs but they are still valid philosophy.

In fact they are even more valid now that we can PROVE everything in space is in motion.

Is it?? It is valid Apologetic's , but that does not make is valid philosophy. I notice you are unable or unwilling to respond to the criticism about that entire subsection of philosophy

let's see if you can counter the criticism of Aquinas from this post
follow the little blue dot
 
This is the problems that I see with the "Argument from motion"

First of all, it assumes that 'rest' is the default condition of things. This can not be shown to be true, and indeed, there is nothing we can look at this is totally at rest. Motion is basically how things are relative to each other, This argument is based on the Aristotle's concept of the Aether, which has been proven to be false.

So, it starts off with assumptions that not only haven't been shown to be true, but have actually been shown to be false.

Next, it assumes that there is one 'unmoved mover', and then labels this 'unmoved mover' as god. It makes the assumption that there can only be one source for making things move, and then uses a leap of logic to label this as god. This is the logical fallacy of special pleading, following by 'defining' God into place, without giving any reason to call it God.

All in all, it is not convincing, because of not only the logical flaws, but because the axiom on which ti is based has been positively proven to be false.

Here is what I think-
His physics is not that far off, though he didn't have the benefit of knowing what we know today.
We believe that entropy increases, and this is the natural direction of things. As such, in a closed system when entropy increases, the energy gets distributed or spread out, so that local concentrations of higher energy are reduced, until the whole system is equalized. One could call this the default condition of things.
Entropy can decrease, but in order to do so the energy has to be rearranged by an external force, which requires the addition of new energy.

Aristotles aether has been debated, refuted, reincluded and refuted again throughout history. The aether is an invisible medium made of some special substance that has the ability to transport energy through what would otherwise be empty space. Einstein changed his mind on this a few times, I think. This had some relation to his theories of a cosmological constant.

Albert Einstein in 1920: ”We may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an Aether. According to the general theory of relativity space without Aether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this Aether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.” [13]

Paul Dirac wrote in 1951:[7] "Physical knowledge has advanced much since 1905, notably by the arrival of quantum mechanics, and the situation [about the scientific plausibility of Aether] has again changed. If one examines the question in the light of present-day knowledge, one finds that the Aether is no longer ruled out by relativity, and good reasons can now be advanced for postulating an Aether. . . . . . . .We have now the velocity at all points of space-time, playing a fundamental part in electrodynamics. It is natural to regard it as the velocity of some real physical thing. Thus with the new theory of electrodynamics [vacuum filled with virtual particles] we are rather forced to have an Aether".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories#Conjectures_and_proposals

Today we have dark matter and dark energy theories to account for the apparent missing mass that confounds our observations of objects in space, like the rotational velocity of galaxies. The dark matter cannot be seen or measured, but it pervades everything everywhere and makes up the bulk of material in the universe. That sounds like an aether.
In electronics we talk about the transmission impedance of free space, as a model to describe how radio waves propagate through an apparent vacuum.
These theories imply that there is no such thing as empty space. Vacuum has energy.

Coming to the issue of whether there needs to be a "first mover" or not, I would say from a human perspective, that is to say cause and effect, it seems completely reasonable. The alternative is harder for ordinary people to grasp.
 
Here is what I think-
His physics is not that far off, though he didn't have the benefit of knowing what we know today.
We believe that entropy increases, and this is the natural direction of things. As such, in a closed system when entropy increases, the energy is distributed or spread out, so that local concentrations of higher energy are reduced, until the whole system is equalized. One could call this the default condition of things.
Entropy can decrease, but in order to do so the energy has to be rearranged by an external force, which requires the addition of new energy.

And is that a true statement when it comes to non-en-tropic time, such as is hypothesized to be before the Planck epoch? And, just because we can't grasp something does it mean it's false?
 
And is that a true statement when it comes to non-en-tropic time, such as is hypothesized to be before the Planck epoch? And, just because we can't grasp something does it mean it's false?

I don't know? ;)


Since we were talking about whether motion or rest is the natural state of things, a lack of entropy during the Planck epoch would be the exception, compared to the 13.8 billion years that follow. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is after all, a law.

-> And, just because we can't grasp something does it mean it's false?
Now you're starting to sound like one with "faith"... ;)
 
Thomas Aquinas' first way is the "Argument from Motion". It is as follows



Is this argument reasonable and rational? What are the weaknesses of this argument? What are it's strengths? Do you find this argument convincing, if so, why? If not, why not?


something might move itself if it decays and nothingness itself might be unstable ( no hard rules either )

and 8 seems bogus because even if have a necessary attribute in the unmoved mover its a huge leap to say its your magic sky daddy or a Person of any kind

7 dosent seem to necessarily be true

and if 8 is right then any of the previous 7 steps are potentially false as well not just 5
 
I don't know? ;)


Since we were talking about whether motion or rest is the natural state of things, a lack of entropy during the Planck epoch would be the exception, compared to the 13.8 billion years that follow. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is after all, a law.

-> And, just because we can't grasp something does it mean it's false?
Now you're starting to sound like one with "faith"... ;)

Yes, you don't know.

You are making assumptions you can not show to be true. For example. show that then natural state of being is at rest, which is one of Aquinas's. Please show that is true.
 
Yes, you don't know.

You are making assumptions you can not show to be true. For example. show that then natural state of being is at rest, which is one of Aquinas's. Please show that is true.
I have tried to do that, Ramoss, in my conjecture on the law of thermodynamics.
When energy is applied to a closed system it degrades.
 
Back
Top Bottom