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The Bible is Completely Immoral[W:197]

Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

No, that would be you.


Which just confirms what I said.

No... it's philosophy.

I trust my logic... logic is not subjective... if I have the correct logic my argument is valid and sound...
I gave you my argument...

My assumption is the golden rule... since these do not follow the golden rule-therefore they are immoral...
There are things that can complicate the golden rule, but those things are not present in this situation... therefore it's valid.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Sure, humans have limitless potential,
No, they do not.

but the gods are static and cannot evolve.
We are speaking about one specific G_D. Not of anything else.

Humans can rise up, hell the Tower of Babel proves God's fear of a united mankind. Why would he fear us if we were no threat to him?
Your interpretation of fear from that passage belongs to you and you alone.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

That is a lame cartoon.
G_d knows everything that is going to happen. Even what fetuses would or wouldn't be aborted and yet sent them to be aborted anyways.
G_d even created those it knew would abort fetuses and has allowed them to do so. So, if there is a G_d it is must be part of it's plan.

A hypothetical God does not send fetuses...that's where you are wrong xD

People make fetuses through their own choices...

A more accurate statement from god would be "There would have been someone, but you aborted them"
From what I understand murder is always against "god's plan"... people choose through their free will to murder. If a God changed things to make it not happen it would not be free will.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

No... it's philosophy.

I trust my logic... logic is not subjective... if I have the correct logic my argument is valid and sound...
I gave you my argument...

My assumption is the golden rule... since these do not follow the golden rule-therefore they are immoral...
There are things that can complicate the golden rule, but those things are not present in this situation... therefore it's valid.
D'oh!
Your logic!? Ha, ha, ha.
Still wrong.
iLOL
You only confirmed what I said.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

A hypothetical God does not send fetuses...that's where you are wrong xD

People make fetuses through their own choices...

A more accurate statement from god would be "There would have been someone, but you aborted them"
Another lame argument.
As birth does not happen unless G_d wants it to. A fetus does not come into being to develop and a soul does not possess that body once it breaths without G_d making it happen.
You seem to be forgetting which specific G_D we are speaking about.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

D'oh!
Your logic!? Ha, ha, ha.
Still wrong.
iLOL
You only confirmed what I said.

No... it's not mine... logic is what the universe is run by... it's not subjective... the reason you are able to post on this forum is because of logic..logic is built into your computer.
We can all agree on the fundamentals of logic.
 
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Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Another lame argument.
As birth does not happen unless G_d wants it to. A fetus does not come into being to develop and a soul does not possess that body once it breaths without G_d making it happen.
You seem to be forgetting which specific G_D we are speaking about.

I don't think that is true in all Christian religions...I was raised Catholic ... they believe the soul comes at conception.. when you a unique genetic human.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

You are welcome to create the same reproductive process, but here's the catch; you can't use any of God's elements to do it. You have to invent those first too. No run along and get busy.

Well why can't people use the sex organs God made for them for homosexual purposes?
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

And? That would be the Creator's imposed morals for his creations to live by.

But that moral is harmful to society. So shouldn't we as a society conclude that this supposed creator is wrong?
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

What you say is irreluvant as I already addressed it twice. You should learn to pay attention next time.

I also addressed your claim that the bible doesn't call for the killing of homosexuals. What did I not address? Was it the claim that this is done to promote population growth?
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

First off, don't confuse what I state with what I may or may not believe about a Creator.

Your interpretation is flawed as it is based on your opinion and nothing more.
If the Creator is real then it's imposed standards are not immoral. Period. They simply can not be as as they come from the Creator as the way we are supposed to live.
That isn't even an argument that can be made.

Everything outside of that belief is subjective and all you can truely say is that you do not believe in those morals and the reasons why.

So again, "maybe you should just settle for these are not your morals and that much of what the Bible says is counter to them, especially as absent a belief in G_d given morals to follow, all morals are subjective."


Or in other words, those beliefs are not moral in your eyes.

My opinion is based on evaluating each of these rules and seeing their costs and benefits to society. So why don't we start with one of these verses, for example the one about killing gays and evaluate its effect on society. Lets use reason and evidence here.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

No. You calling G_d an ass would be you not accepting what you told and substituting what believe instead.
The "Ifs" are a given, but your arguments are still wrong.



Good thing we are not discussing Hitler then, huh?

The problem is that your argument assumes that God is the creator and is omnipotent. I want to make no assumptions. Just because he is the creator does not he is right, and the fact that he is all powerful does not make him right. I am claiming that there is a lack of evidence that the God of the bible is omni-benevolent and there is good evidence that he is in fact not omni-benevolent.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Well why can't people use the sex organs God made for them for homosexual purposes?

Hmmm, I believe they are. Was that a trick question?
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Hmmm, I believe they are. Was that a trick question?

Ok, so gay people can use their sex organs for their own purposes. I am glad we got that clarified.

So what was the whole point with killing them, and sending them to hell?
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Ok, so gay people can use their sex organs for their own purposes.

Straight ones can too!

I occasionally use mine as a paperweight.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Ok, so gay people can use their sex organs for their own purposes. I am glad we got that clarified.

So what was the whole point with killing them, and sending them to hell?

I wasn't judging, I was just affirming that they can. Did you want a moral judgment with that?
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

As csbrown pointed out, here undoubtedly come the mental gymnastics and apologetics. Look, we get it, the average Christian is not a violent monster, but that's only because you don't actually follow what the bible tells you to do. It is one of the most vile and disgusting pieces of literature on the planet, it advocates violence and it paints the picture of a god who throws hissy fits and kills millions upon millions of men, women and children. He even goes as far to tell his armies to murder all of the non-virgins, men women and children, and take all of the virgins, children included, for themselves.

I for one am glad that the modern Christian cherry picks the handful of parables and suggestions he finds most comforting and doesn't follow the whole thing literally, otherwise we'd be seeing ISIS level violence. Good on you, Christians for subjectively rejecting the worst parts of your holy book. :applaud

What about all the sister and mother and daughter banging? There's a fair amount of that as well.

What bothers me far above anything else is people who condemn the Qu'ran for basically saying the same stuff the Bible does.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

I wasn't judging, I was just affirming that they can. Did you want a moral judgment with that?

I actually don't want a moral judgement. Thats going to just be your opinion. I want a cost-benefit analysis of killing homosexuals based on reason and evidence.

I have been looking through the things Christians responded to:
Divorce:
Women silent in churches:
Submissive wives:
Rape:
Forced Abortion:
Killing of Homosexuals in the Old Testament:
Homosexuals go to hell in New Testament:

Death for not believing in the right religion:
Genocide:
Slavery allowed in the old testament:
Obedience of slaves commanded in the new testament:
Generational Punishment:
Death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath:
Hanging up decapitated heads:
Demonizing non-Christians and calling them liars:
Silly Rules in the Law of Moses:

In bold is the stuff you guys actually responded to.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

I hear Christians discuss how atheists don't have a strong basis in morality yet when we look at the bible there are a lot of problems. I will be providing some sample verses demonstrating some pretty shocking things in the bible. In most cases there are multiple examples but I only provide one for each for brevity.

only by those people that wish to distort scripture and claim something in which they have no clue about. The only reason that people attempt to claim that the bible
is immoral is so attempt to qualify their own immorality.

Divorce:
Matthew 19
9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife [or husband], except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”[/QUOTE]
Yep since marriage is supposed to be forever and is a covenant relationship. God doesn't believe in divorce.

Women silent in churches:
1 Corinthians 14
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
what was happening is that the women in the congregation were causing a disruption in their behavior they were disturbing the other people around them with their antics. hence why they were told to be quiet.

Submissive wives:
Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

yes the word submit here means to respect your husbands authority. in the following verse it says husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and laid down his life for her.

Rape:
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=12&article=2333
you lose again.

Abortion:
Numbers 5
14
and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure—
15 then he is to take his wife to the priest....[The woman is made to drink some bitter water that brings a curse if she is unfaithful, and a sacrifice is made....]
27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.

Second, an abortion really isn’t in view here. As I stated earlier, children were a blessing to Jewish women. A barren woman was seen as cursed. This curse was not meant to abort a child. Rather, it was meant to show guilt. A woman who had not committed adultery would gladly redeem herself by drinking the water. A woman who had committed adultery would not agree to drinking the water, and therefore guilt could be determined.

There is simply no strong argument that can be given to Biblically support abortion. Children are precious to God, and he would never be okay with taking the lives of innocent children because they’re in the way of something we want.

no women in her right mind would willingly abort her child.

Killing of Homosexuals in the Old Testament:
Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Homosexuals go to hell in New Testament:
1 Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.

yet wrong again.
https://carm.org/should-homosexuals-be-put-to-death

as for revelation the wages of sin is death. they aren't thrown into hell for homosexuality they are thrown into hell for their sin just like anyone else that has
not accepted Christ as savior.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

Im interested on which ones you think is okay, and which ones you think are mistranslated...

well almost all the ones he quoted are taken out of context by him.
which is why his post is a bunch of nonsense for the most part and anyone that has studied the bible in depth
already know this.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

I've never believed that the Bible was even supposed to be moral (at least according to modern morality). It's supposed to be correct. Who ever said moral and correct would necessarily be the same thing? Seems like a modern artificial construct.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

No, they do not.

We are speaking about one specific G_D. Not of anything else.

Your interpretation of fear from that passage belongs to you and you alone.

Pfft, you just can't see the limitless potential of humanity. No God is immune to the might of a unified humanity. Just because you interpret it that way does not make it so.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

I actually don't want a moral judgement. Thats going to just be your opinion. I want a cost-benefit analysis of killing homosexuals based on reason and evidence.

this is simple.

the Israel was a close knit population. they spent most of their life migrating from place to place.
next when the birth rate vs death rate. it was really poor.
next infection and disease.
then there was the call of Israel to be pure and separate from their neighbors.

so if you have a group of the population that are homosexual they are not contributing to the birth rate infact they are harming it.
not having offspring in those days was as good as killing yourself anyway. your blood lined died.

so if you have a group of people not having kids then that makes the situation even worse.

next disease. if you look at the CDC studies. homosexuals have some of the highest rates of STD's per population.
in a small contained society like Israel this would run rampant through the camp. that is why there was a call for sexual purity in the bible.
even today the CDC warns about high sexual behavior has huge risks of getting STD's.

even right now STD's are on a huge increase. why? there is a lack of sexual purity and sexual respect in our culture.

https://carm.org/why-do-christians-not-obey-old-testaments-commands-to-kill-homosexuals
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

I actually don't want a moral judgement. Thats going to just be your opinion. I want a cost-benefit analysis of killing homosexuals based on reason and evidence.

I have been looking through the things Christians responded to:
Divorce:
Women silent in churches:
Submissive wives:
Rape:
Forced Abortion:
Killing of Homosexuals in the Old Testament:
Homosexuals go to hell in New Testament:

Death for not believing in the right religion:
Genocide:
Slavery allowed in the old testament:
Obedience of slaves commanded in the new testament:
Generational Punishment:
Death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath:
Hanging up decapitated heads:
Demonizing non-Christians and calling them liars:
Silly Rules in the Law of Moses:

In bold is the stuff you guys actually responded to.

I'd like a cost-benefit analysis on aborting babies. Maybe you could work on that.
 
Re: The Bible is Completely Immoral

I am actually pretty happy that you responded to my post in detail. You are the first person to do this and despite our difference in opinion I admire that you are actually taking this on. In the past I have sometimes taken verses out of context but these examples come from a fair reading of the bible and looking at other biblical references. If you present a good argument that these verses were taken out of context, then I will remove them from my list.

Yep since marriage is supposed to be forever and is a covenant relationship. God doesn't believe in divorce.

I myself think that divorce is far too overused in our society. The problem I have with this verse is that adultery is the only exception. My mother was married to a man who was physically violent for 5 years despite the protestations of her family. She then married a man who was initially charming but after a year turned out to be emotionally and verbally abusive every day to both her and I. I am so happy to be out of that house. Believe me. I have seen with my own eyes why the bible can be so wrong about divorce.

what was happening is that the women in the congregation were causing a disruption in their behavior they were disturbing the other people around them with their antics. hence why they were told to be quiet.

First, it is unlikely that all women in the congregation were disruptive. And if they were, wouldn't it be better to just make a rule that people who are disruptive can't speak in church instead of being sexist?

I can also find no reference in the chapter that this rule came from women in Corinth being disruptive. It seems you came up with this on your own without consulting the bible. If you actually look at the verse it actually gives a defense of why it made that rule:
1 Corinthians 14
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

The defense is not that Corinthian women are disruptive but that it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

yes the word submit here means to respect your husbands authority. in the following verse it says husbands love your wives even as Christ loved the church and laid down his life for her.

Isn't respecting your husband's authority the same thing as being submissive? If not then we really need to look at the definition of 'submissive' and see related biblical verses about this topic.


I come here to debate with people not hyperlinks. I deal with enough hyperlinks at work.

Second, an abortion really isn’t in view here. As I stated earlier, children were a blessing to Jewish women. A barren woman was seen as cursed. This curse was not meant to abort a child. Rather, it was meant to show guilt. A woman who had not committed adultery would gladly redeem herself by drinking the water. A woman who had committed adultery would not agree to drinking the water, and therefore guilt could be determined.

There is simply no strong argument that can be given to Biblically support abortion. Children are precious to God, and he would never be okay with taking the lives of innocent children because they’re in the way of something we want.

no women in her right mind would willingly abort her child.

First off, I don't believe in the bible so I really don't believe that drinking holy water is going to cause an abortion. But what matters is that the bible does. These verses definitely do talk about abortion. See the text in bold again:

Numbers 5
14
and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure—
15 then he is to take his wife to the priest....[The woman is made to drink some bitter water that brings a curse if she is unfaithful, and a sacrifice is made....]
27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.


See what I said about hyperlinks. They are great for backing up your arguments. They are not so good for being your arguments.

as for revelation the wages of sin is death. they aren't thrown into hell for homosexuality they are thrown into hell for their sin just like anyone else that has
not accepted Christ as savior.

My question is, why is homosexuality wrong?
 
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