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Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581:1781]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Dittohead not! said:
Did time really begin with the universe, or did it begin when human beings invented it?
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Well time is a part of spacetime, which 'began' with the big bang at the beginning of the universe. Time is a malleable, tangible thing that exists, not an abstract concept.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

csbrown28 said:
I agree with everything, but one thing.



How can you know this? If something existed but it never changed how would you measure time? It violates the law of thermodynamics, but that law applies here, in this universe, it doesn't have to apply outside this universe.

I can imagine the opposite of entropy as a possible state in another universe, or something in between, where literally nothing ever changes. The hydrogen created from a "big bang" is created in a universe without gravity. Without gravity nothing ever comes together, nothing ever changes. Something exists, but entropy wouldn't apply as the lowest possible energy state is perpetually achieved....
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The way we know this is that science tell us this. Remember, I said "I would argue that logic and science demand that this be true." Science tells us that all matter and energy changes in various (ie location, direction, mass/amount, etc) ways so logic leads us to conclude that if nothing is changing, it is because there is nothing to change.

Now, as far as there being different laws of physics, basically that argument boils down to "If everything can be completely different, can things be completely different?" Logic makes it obvious that the answer to that question is "Yes." However, there is no proof that this other universe exists, so hypothesizing about it is, at best, philosophizing and, at worst, imagining. Not that there's anything wrong with philosophy or imagination but neither are science and I said " I would argue that logic and science demand that this be true."
 
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re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

celticwar17 said:
Why is there anything? Whynot just nothing?

Some Physicist have a strong inclination to think that the universe IS a net nothing, I've known professors that have explained the math to me before and what it would take for the universe to be a net zero.
But there are problems with it... A lot of assumptions are being made, as we don't have a theory of everything... the only thing that can be said about it is that it's beautiful- it works and is possible in the realm of math.

But even if we were a net nothing, it seems to be a loophole for us to exist in the first place....It makes it possible for something to be within nothing, but actually just being nothing. So the math does not fail, there is no magic... which in and of itself seems very magical to me. If there was a creator, it did it in such a fashion to not violate the very laws it is governed by.... order to perfection.

Knowing all of that... why is there something rather than just nothing?
One possible answer is that.... it just is, and it's not nothing, because... it's not... Which our human brains can't hardly grasp because I feel we innately try to find a cause and effect and have no grasp of infinity or what the universe truly is or what and what-not is possible.
-It could be just another fundamental law----> it just is



I want to hear your thoughts on this.... and Ill repeat and rephrase slightly... Why is their something rather than nothing? Why is there a difference between anything?

This sounds like Plato talking about the forms :doh
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That, my friend, is beyond our pay grade
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

BrewerBob said:
I don't know if our universe has a creator. If it does I highly doubt it is some magical all powerful being. More likely it would just be some form superior intelligence (even if only slightly) running a computer simulation. Hell, a human could be the creator of this universe.

So when talking about THIS universe I wouldn't be surprised if it has a creator. But then where does that creator exist? Is it turtles all the way down? It seems to me at some point something has to exist eternally, and I see no reason why there would have to be an intelligence has to be that something.

In the end I am left with the feeling that whatever explanation we come up with, it is likely not true.

I fully realize when I start talking about this particular subject I sound like a crackpot.
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I completely agree with your sentiments. Good post.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

sangha said:
The way we know this is that science tell us this. Remember, I said "I would argue that logic and science demand that this be true." Science tells us that all matter and energy changes in various (ie location, direction, mass/amount, etc) ways so logic leads us to conclude that if nothing is changing, it is because there is nothing to change.

Now, as far as there being different laws of physics, basically that argument boils down to "If everything can be completely different, can things be completely different?" Logic makes it obvious that the answer to that question is "Yes." However, there is no proof that this other universe exists, so hypothesizing about it is, at best, philosophizing and, at worst, imagining. Not that there's anything wrong with philosophy or imagination but neither are science and I said " I would argue that logic and science demand that this be true."
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If your point is constrained to the universe we know, then you are, of course, correct, but it isn't simply science fantasy to suggest that something existed prior to the expansion of the universe, what exactly that was, is as you point out, anyone's guess, but I thought we were speculating and not constrained to this universe...
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Nilly said:
Well time is a part of spacetime, which 'began' with the big bang at the beginning of the universe. Time is a malleable, tangible thing that exists, not an abstract concept.
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Here's where it gets confusing: How can time be said to have begun, when a beginning itself is a concept of time? A beginning is a point in time. If there was no time before that point, how can there have been a beginning?
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

csbrown28 said:
If your point is constrained to the universe we know, then you are, of course, correct, but it isn't simply science fantasy to suggest that something existed prior to the expansion of the universe, what exactly that was, is as you point out, anyone's guess, but I thought we were speculating and not constrained to this universe...
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I did not intend to suggest that speculation was not allowed or that you are constrained in any way. I was merely expanding on my claim that science and logic requires a belief that the universe has existed since the beginning of time. That is where I have planted my flag. You are free to put forward any idea you choose to and you need not limit yourself to just science and logic.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

To the OP, it's largely because there's no evidence of a creator, and everything in the universe operates through natural processes. If there is an exception to that outside the universe, we have no cause to suspect it.

Dittohead not! said:
Unless, of course, everything actually exists together and we just slowly pass through the dimension we call "time," perceiving that things change as we move along.
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What's the difference?
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Pozessed said:
Setting aside any religious dogma. Why is it easier for some of us to consider this universe and its entirety happened by chance rather than conscious calculation? I don't think its fair to try and justify the psychology of a creator of the universe in this post. (i.e: Why is there evil?)
I'm honestly curious why it is easier to assume chaotic randomness as opposed to a calculated design.
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If there's a designer, then it must have come from somewhere. So, why can't the universe just come from somewhere?
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Dittohead not! said:
Here's where it gets confusing: How can time be said to have begun, when a beginning itself is a concept of time? A beginning is a point in time. If there was no time before that point, how can there have been a beginning?
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Time can easily have had a beginning even if there was no time prior. Much like the universe had a beginning despite there being no universe prior.

The entire notion of 'before' time is undefined, I would agree with that, if that's what you're trying to say.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Pozessed said:
Setting aside any religious dogma. Why is it easier for some of us to consider this universe and its entirety happened by chance rather than conscious calculation? I don't think its fair to try and justify the psychology of a creator of the universe in this post. (i.e: Why is there evil?)
I'm honestly curious why it is easier to assume chaotic randomness as opposed to a calculated design.
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We don't believe in chaotic randomness. We believe in natural forces forming the universe, the earth, and life on earth. Natural forces like Evolution and the Big Bang. These have solid scientific evidence.

The idea that we were snapped into existence by some invisible space fairy has no evidence whatsoever and all design evidence boil down to, "It could not have been random."
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Pozessed said:
Setting aside any religious dogma. Why is it easier for some of us to consider this universe and its entirety happened by chance rather than conscious calculation? I don't think its fair to try and justify the psychology of a creator of the universe in this post. (i.e: Why is there evil?)
I'm honestly curious why it is easier to assume chaotic randomness as opposed to a calculated design.
Click to expand...

Who created the creator?

And the creator's creator?

etc
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Because belief is not the same as knowledge.

Nor is it a substitute.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I don't believe the universe was created by an intelligence because it is intellectually lazy. I'm just passing the buck rather than searching for answers.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Dittohead not! said:
Here's where it gets confusing: How can time be said to have begun, when a beginning itself is a concept of time? A beginning is a point in time. If there was no time before that point, how can there have been a beginning?
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Time is how we perceive events in the universe. Time is relative to your frame of observation. It is entirely possible for two beings in two different frames of reference to see events happen in a different order, at a different "time", with neither frame of reference being more correct than the other.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Paschendale said:
To the OP, it's largely because there's no evidence of a creator, and everything in the universe operates through natural processes. If there is an exception to that outside the universe, we have no cause to suspect it.



What's the difference?
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The difference is that, if time is actually flowing the way we perceive it to be, then the past is gone, dead, never to return. If, on the other hand, we're simply moving through the dimension of time, then everything that ever existed still exists, just at a different point along the continuum.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Nilly said:
Time can easily have had a beginning even if there was no time prior. Much like the universe had a beginning despite there being no universe prior.

The entire notion of 'before' time is undefined, I would agree with that, if that's what you're trying to say.
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Yes, before time is undefined. The term "before" implies that there is time.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Dittohead not! said:
I time is simply an abstract concept that we have invented, then what effect does it have on the universe?
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Sorry, I missed this.

I think the better question is, what effect does the universe have on time.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Because it is not about what is "easiest", it is about what is REAL. It is far easier and reassuring to believe the universe was created and for us. It gives meaning where there is none. As human knowledge evolves we have realized our perceived importance is irrelevant and the truth is far more interesting and valuable.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Dittohead not! said:
Yes, or maybe both.
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I can think of ways that the universe affects how we perceive time, but I'm not aware of how time affects how we perceive the universe.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Amadeus said:
I don't believe the universe was created by an intelligence because it is intellectually lazy. I'm just passing the buck rather than searching for answers.
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Yeah. I always thought "the god did it" meme was outdated. We have definitely reached a point where we should all be able to see that there are other, better, options.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

csbrown28 said:
I can think of ways that the universe affects how we perceive time, but I'm not aware of how time affects how we perceive the universe.
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We don't even perceive the universe at the same point in time. Light from the most distance galaxies is reaching us from literally billions of years in the past.
 
re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Dittohead not! said:
We don't even perceive the universe at the same point in time. Light from the most distance galaxies is reaching us from literally billions of years in the past.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but that is just how the universe affects how we perceive time, not how the concept of time affects the universe.
 
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