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I identify as....

When did I say that there arnt some people whose gender identity is flexible?
http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/226592-identify-3.html#post1064789750 "So there is still no evidence that gender identity is flexible."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/226592-identify-3.html#post1064793106 "All im saying is that there is no evidence that gender identity is flexible."


All im saying is your rat study doesnt have anything to do with gender identity and as far as I have seen there isnt any studies showing that gender identity is flexible.

Also I should mention that just because some people gender identity is flexible doesnt mean that everyones gender identity is.

Edit: All I really care about getting across is that a transsexuals gender identity isnt flexible.

And what I am getting across to you is that your general absolutes are not right. You basically just said specifically transsexuals are all the same. That all transsexuals have inflexible gender identity. That is BS some transsexuals do have a fluid gender identity, they are not any different than any other human. But to say that all transsexuals have a fixed gender identity flies in the face of actual reality.

And I never said that the existence of people with fluid gender identity makes everyone's gender identity fluid. You are just jumping to conclusions and apparently want me to be arguing something that I am not.

You said that gender identity isnt at all flexible. I corrected you and pointed out that, that isnt always the case.
 
http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/226592-identify-3.html#post1064789750 "So there is still no evidence that gender identity is flexible."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/226592-identify-3.html#post1064793106 "All im saying is that there is no evidence that gender identity is flexible."




And what I am getting across to you is that your general absolutes are not right. You basically just said specifically transsexuals are all the same. That all transsexuals have inflexible gender identity. That is BS some transsexuals do have a fluid gender identity, they are not any different than any other human. But to say that all transsexuals have a fixed gender identity flies in the face of actual reality.

And I never said that the existence of people with fluid gender identity makes everyone's gender identity fluid. You are just jumping to conclusions and apparently want me to be arguing something that I am not.

You said that gender identity isnt at all flexible. I corrected you and pointed out that, that isnt always the case.

What I said is there is no evidence that its flexible. As in no studies showing it to be flexible. Doesnt mean that I dont believe that there are people whos gender identity is flexible. Your trying to say that I said something that I didnt say.

Yes some transsexuals are also gender fluid. I should have been more specific in what I said. A transsexuals gender identity can be fluid but doesnt mean that all of them are. Thats my fault in not articulating what I meant correctly.
 
What I said is there is no evidence that its flexible. As in no studies showing it to be flexible. Doesnt mean that I dont believe that there are people whos gender identity is flexible. Your trying to say that I said something that I didnt say.

Yes some transsexuals are also gender fluid. I should have been more specific in what I said. A transsexuals gender identity can be fluid but doesnt mean that all of them are. Thats my fault in not articulating what I meant correctly.

Yeah to say the least, you shouldnt have spoke in absolutes if you were not intending to assert that point. Telling me a couple times that gender identity isnt flexible, makes me believe that you were saying that gender is never flexible. ANd really you are nit picking no saying that there are "no studies showing it to be flexible".
 
Yeah to say the least, you shouldnt have spoke in absolutes if you were not intending to assert that point. Telling me a couple times that gender identity isnt flexible, makes me believe that you were saying that gender is never flexible. ANd really you are nit picking no saying that there are "no studies showing it to be flexible".

I never said gender identity isnt flexible as I have said several times.

And I have to ask. When Ramoss posted saying that the physical structure of the brain controls body image and it doesnt appear to be able to be changed I thought it was pretty obvious they were talking about non gender fluid people (which is why all my posts left them out). So why exactly did you reply with that study to their post? Were you trying to show that there were some people that were gender fluid or that transsexuals gender identity can be changed (not speaking about gender fluid transsexuals)? Because to me it came across as the latter since I thought it was obvious they werent talking about gender fluid people.
 
I never said gender identity isnt flexible as I have said several times.
Ok then we agree.

And I have to ask. When Ramoss posted saying that the physical structure of the brain controls body image and it doesnt appear to be able to be changed I thought it was pretty obvious they were talking about non gender fluid people (which is why all my posts left them out). So why exactly did you reply with that study to their post? Were you trying to show that there were some people that were gender fluid or that transsexuals gender identity can be changed (not speaking about gender fluid transsexuals)? Because to me it came across as the latter since I thought it was obvious they werent talking about gender fluid people.

Well of course if someone is not gender fluid they are not gender fluid. But the study that I linked says that the brain of a female can be changed to develop into a male structure brain. My point wasnt all that crap that you are saying, it was that gender identity isnt magical. What this will lead to is a biological test of a patient to determine if they just think they are a different sex than they were born or if their brain structure is actually the a different sex than what their body appearance would indicate.


This being the philosophy forum I was injecting a question of what is known in the area of gender identity.
 
When I was younger I had a deep tan and dark hair and was jumped with the intent to kill me as one of the gang thought I was the Hispanic that his wife was banging. If not for his uncle interfering I would have been murdered.
 
http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/226592-identify-3.html#post1064789750 "So there is still no evidence that gender identity is flexible."

http://www.debatepolitics.com/philosophical-discussions/226592-identify-3.html#post1064793106 "All im saying is that there is no evidence that gender identity is flexible."




And what I am getting across to you is that your general absolutes are not right. You basically just said specifically transsexuals are all the same. That all transsexuals have inflexible gender identity. That is BS some transsexuals do have a fluid gender identity, they are not any different than any other human. But to say that all transsexuals have a fixed gender identity flies in the face of actual reality.

And I never said that the existence of people with fluid gender identity makes everyone's gender identity fluid. You are just jumping to conclusions and apparently want me to be arguing something that I am not.

You said that gender identity isnt at all flexible. I corrected you and pointed out that, that isnt always the case.

While I teach in my BDSM 101 class that many of the labels we use (and not just within BDSM) are rather flexable, in this case you are misapplying the concept. Transsexual refers to an individual who identifies as the gender opposite of their physical gender of birth. Gender fluid refers to an individual who identifies as their gender shifting or changing, either on a sliding scale or as fixed points. Gender fluid people are not transsexuals any more than homosexuals are bisexuals. GF's, at least in my experience, rarely seek GRS. Although there are some that wish they could shape shift so that their body could match their current identity. Some would be a constant blur. ;)
 
While I teach in my BDSM 101 class that many of the labels we use (and not just within BDSM) are rather flexable, in this case you are misapplying the concept. Transsexual refers to an individual who identifies as the gender opposite of their physical gender of birth. Gender fluid refers to an individual who identifies as their gender shifting or changing, either on a sliding scale or as fixed points. Gender fluid people are not transsexuals any more than homosexuals are bisexuals. GF's, at least in my experience, rarely seek GRS. Although there are some that wish they could shape shift so that their body could match their current identity. Some would be a constant blur. ;)
I was pointing out that the poster was wrong; that people exist that are as you put it blurs. I didnt say that everyone was a blur and certainly not all transsexuals. Look at the posters quotes he point blankly so no one can have a flexible gender identity.

In my experiences the lines a grayed. In theory there are definite divisions, but in practice we all are not black and white in gender identity. Social influence and norms dictate that there are solid and breakable lines between one gender identity and another. If I identify as a straight female or straight male whos to say that I cannot change my mind or end up feeling differently at any given point? What if I dont understand my gender identity? Emotionally nothing is black and white. My brain may have a certain structure that researchers can identify as being a certain sex identity. But that doesnt mean that I cannot have a different opinion on my gender identity. How a person feels about their gender identity can change. That isnt a assertion that it will happen to everyone. But to assert that it cant is wrong.
 
I was pointing out that the poster was wrong; that people exist that are as you put it blurs. I didnt say that everyone was a blur and certainly not all transsexuals. Look at the posters quotes he point blankly so no one can have a flexible gender identity.

In my experiences the lines a grayed. In theory there are definite divisions, but in practice we all are not black and white in gender identity. Social influence and norms dictate that there are solid and breakable lines between one gender identity and another. If I identify as a straight female or straight male whos to say that I cannot change my mind or end up feeling differently at any given point? What if I dont understand my gender identity? Emotionally nothing is black and white. My brain may have a certain structure that researchers can identify as being a certain sex identity. But that doesnt mean that I cannot have a different opinion on my gender identity. How a person feels about their gender identity can change. That isnt a assertion that it will happen to everyone. But to assert that it cant is wrong.

This issue has certainly gotten a lot of attention in the media lately, particularly by Charlie Rose.

I remember as little kids, the boys would hold hand with other boys, and the girls would hold hands with other girls, and boys did not want to hold girls' hands, and girls did not want to hold boys' hands. It's a very vague and distant memory only.

I also remember that the preschool teachers wanted everyone to hold hands during outings while walking near traffic on sidewalks. Whoever the poor boys or girls were who had to hold hands with the opposite gender were usually not happy about it.

I remember later that hand holding stopped at some point, and when it recurred later, in middle school around age 12, then it was boy-and-girl handholding, not boy-boy or girl-girl. This seems to have been applicable for all boys and girls.

Some boys and girls did NOT however make the transition for whatever reason.

I also found out long after high school that some boys and girls had both genders manifested in them physically. These boys had been somewhat effeminate at the time in high school, and these girls were athletes.

Judging from those personal experiences, I would therefore supposed that anyone can be guided to be "straight or gay."

Other than the hermaphrodites, I do not believe the orientation is biological. It seems to me that it is learned.

Of course in Europe the girls still hold hands into adulthood, and in Arabia the Arab men still hold hands into adulthood as well. Those are cultural anomalies and not American however.
 
This issue has certainly gotten a lot of attention in the media lately, particularly by Charlie Rose.

You dont know very many women do you? lol


That period of time when you observed that children stopped holding same sex hands and then start holding opposite sex hands was called puberty. Up until then gender is a taught by social interaction. Before puberty I knew I was a boy because I was told I was a boy and then someone pointed out that I was a out'y instead of a in'ny.

But as soon as my hormones kicked in all the sudden the opposite sex became a focal point to my existence. As some would say I started thinking with a different head...

But then we have been talking about gender identity not gender roles. IE how a individual views their gender identity; do they personally feel like a man, women, or there abouts. Science or other peoples opinions are not going to change how some feels about their gender identity. How they feel is how they feel. Of course there is some gray area since how a person feels can be greatly affected by chemicals in the brain, mental disorders, emotional trauma, a misunderstands of ones own feelings, biological changes etc. And really a person could just want to be the opposite sex for whatever reason, even if they dont actually feel that way. Or perhaps they just dont feel like the sex they were born as. Hell its their feelings I am not going to tell them they are wrong. I dont think anyone would listen to me if a I tried.

My point though is that a persons feelings are private, and the individual owns them. Other people telling them what they can and cannot do with their own feelings of self perception is extremely arrogant. This trying to establish gender identity as being black or white, is self serving for the people looking for a valid reason to have the personal feelings that they identify with in their own gender identity. It is a insecurity. They want to be viewed as legit humans.

Of course people will turn this into something about bigotry. And yes there are a lot of bigots that dont accept alternative lifestyles. The popular theme in this thread is that a individual cannot personally change their gender identity. Yet there are people that do.


I suspect that the actual issue here is a projection of a certain ideological belief system. A individual has their own personal feeling of gender identity. But there are people saying that individuals are powerless to change that identity. Its a collective of people saying that the consensus is that you cannot change your feeling s of your own gender identity and that you are locked into that gender identity until you die. But ignores the nature of humans; ignorance of ones own feelings isnt unheard of and in fact a natural part of the brains development. The danger is that this movement is trying to tell people who may not actually know enough information yet, to definitely know their own feeling of gender identity. Many homosexuals because they too are influenced by society, dont come to the realization that their gender identity is not what the believed for a good part of their life. The feeling took time to grow while the person learned more about them self. They may have thought they identified their gender a certain way but learned through the years what their actual feelings were.

But to most of the posters in this thread, a individual is locked into their gender identity and cannot change it for any reason. As if introspective feelings of ones self identity cannot change. I am who I think I am, no matter what road blocks society erects.
 
The popular theme in this thread is that a individual cannot personally change their gender identity. Yet there are people that do.

Just a thought; are they actually changing their gender identity, or are they updating the classification based updated evidence they collect. IOW are they saying "I think I shall be Male now." or is it more, "I seem to be more male than anything so that is what I will label, for now."?
 
So lets say I identify as a woman, but everything else is the same, I wear the same clothes, live With, and have sex with the same woman, look exactly the same as I do, have a beard, and do traditionally male things, because I (as a woman) don't buy into gender norms and don't define myself by my physical body.

Am I a woman?
 
Public opinion is against her, but there's no established scientific way to determine race, so legally you can identify as whatever ethnicity you want. They can't challenge it in court.

I identify as a 12 year old.
 
Just a thought; are they actually changing their gender identity, or are they updating the classification based updated evidence they collect. IOW are they saying "I think I shall be Male now." or is it more, "I seem to be more male than anything so that is what I will label, for now."?

I would think that would be a case to case determination, not a one size fits all.
 
So lets say I identify as a woman, but everything else is the same, I wear the same clothes, live With, and have sex with the same woman, look exactly the same as I do, have a beard, and do traditionally male things, because I (as a woman) don't buy into gender norms and don't define myself by my physical body.

Am I a woman?

Were you born with a penis or a vagina? If its a penis, then you are a male that identifies as a women. If its a vagina, then you are the bearded lady.
 
Were you born with a penis or a vagina? If its a penis, then you are a male that identifies as a women. If its a vagina, then you are the bearded lady.

Not according to Western Standards today, according to modern standards I just have to say the Word and I become a woman.
 
Not according to Western Standards today, according to modern standards I just have to say the Word and I become a woman.
Lol Western Standards; good one. Now if we could find a small group of people that would agree what those modern standards are.
 
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