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Human Suffering

Rape is revolting. But just as there are some who eat feces, there are some who rape.

Yes, but as I said they are clearly not equal. The world would be a better place if rape was the same in terms of how often humans eat feces. Why did god allow a much higher incidence of rape than eating feces?

Now before you answer that there is nothing pleasurable about eating feces, then let me put it this way. Would you cross a 100' long x 6" wide balance beam 6" off the floor for $100 million dollars? A lifetime of pleasure to be had at the other end! Of course you would, we all would. Now would you do it if it were 15 stories of the ground, say, inside the superdome?

The challenge is equally as difficult, the prize is still there all that's changed is the consequence of failure, yet (anticipating your argument), if it's simply a question of weighing actions and consequences and rewards, why is it that so many people would be unwilling to walk across the 15 story balance beam 100' away to win more money than they could spend. Most be unable to simple "choose" to do it. Fear would prevent them.

Now I'm asking, if go is god, and he cares about us, why wouldn't he instill some sort of fear or bad feeling when doing terrible wrong to others?
 
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I don't know. Why don't you ask God?

Here's a possible answer:

It increases our virtue to prevent such evils. If God prevented them, then we would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue.



Like atheism.

We value the health and well-being of children. It is that value that tells us we ought to intervene to stop a child from being raped. If there is a child somewhere in this world that's being raped as I type this, I don't know where, thus I am powerless to stop it, but I would if I could.

But you're saying that god shares my value for children, he knows everything so he knows of all the instances of child rape that occur, he has the power to stop it, yet chooses not to?

Sorry, but the idea that god allows these kinds of horrible actions in the name of some "lesser evil" in the history of humanity there isn't a single claim that so many people believe so devoutly that claims to represent good and at the same time is so singularly depraved and evil.
 
I don't know. Why don't you ask God?

You see, Paleo, this is actually an acceptable answer for a theist. It's ok to say "I don't know". I often do. I have no problem with theists who retain their belief even in the face of the problem of evil on the grounds that they have faith that somehow there is an answer, even if it appears that there can be no answer. It's when theists claim to have a solution when they certainly do not that I take issue. When they disingenuously present an irrational argument as if it were rational.

Here's a possible answer:

It increases our virtue to prevent such evils. If God prevented them, then we would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue.

You realize this is an argument for doing evil. A child rapist could say "I should rape children, otherwise someone would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue".

Which should not be surprising given that failing to prevent evil when you are capable of doing so is no different than doing evil.
 
You realize this is an argument for doing evil. A child rapist could say "I should rape children, otherwise someone would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue".

Which should not be surprising given that failing to prevent evil when you are capable of doing so is no different than doing evil.

That has to be the single best response and brings the theist full circle.....Well said.
 
You see, Paleo, this is actually an acceptable answer for a theist. It's ok to say "I don't know". I often do. I have no problem with theists who retain their belief even in the face of the problem of evil on the grounds that they have faith that somehow there is an answer, even if it appears that there can be no answer. It's when theists claim to have a solution when they certainly do not that I take issue. When they disingenuously present an irrational argument as if it were rational.



You realize this is an argument for doing evil. A child rapist could say "I should rape children, otherwise someone would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue".

Which should not be surprising given that failing to prevent evil when you are capable of doing so is no different than doing evil.

It's not an argument for doing evil. The rapist is himself acting unvirtuously. If rapists were to freely stop raping, while it would deprive others of an opportunity for virtue, it would have the greater effect of being virtuous.

On the other hand, if God did your "celestial policeman" bit and stopped him, then the rapist would remain unvirtuous, and other humans would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue.

And no, doing something is not at all the same thing as not doing something.
 
In his infinite wisdom, God sees that preventing such evils would cause greater evils to result.

What exactly are you trying to argue here?

And how do you know this??? What evidence do you have? IT seems to me that this would be in contradiction to an omniscient and omnipotent God, because such a God would be able to avoid the issue of allowing smaller evils so greater ones do not exist.
 
And how do you know this??? What evidence do you have? IT seems to me that this would be in contradiction to an omniscient and omnipotent God, because such a God would be able to avoid the issue of allowing smaller evils so greater ones do not exist.

Well, God knows better than you.
 
Well, God knows better than you.

That also sounds like a flippant remark. I bet you can't provide any evidence for that... except another unsupported claim.
 
That also sounds like a flippant remark. I bet you can't provide any evidence for that... except another unsupported claim.

I think I will believe he might be right until someone proves it wrong. ;)
 
I think I will believe he might be right until someone proves it wrong. ;)

Yes, and our solar system is just a giant Truman Show experiment being run from little aliens that live in the center of the sun.

Those pesky probes we sent out back in the 70's were destroyed when they ran into the wall (which is just a big spherical screen, kinda like a TV) at the edge of the solar system and the signals we get back are simply generated by the same aliens.

Can you prove it wrong?

For those not familiar with the Truman Show:

Truman Show
 
I think I will believe he might be right until someone proves it wrong. ;)


That is your right. You can believe in anything you want. However, there is a contradiction in that attributes of God as presented by most (not all) Christians, and the concept of an all powerful, all knowing and benevolent God, and the observations we see in the world. The explanations to try to attempt to reconcile those contradictions are insufficient, to say the least.
 
Yes, and our solar system is just a giant Truman Show experiment being run from little aliens that live in the center of the sun.

Those pesky probes we sent out back in the 70's were destroyed when they ran into the wall (which is just a big spherical screen, kinda like a TV) at the edge of the solar system and the signals we get back are simply generated by the same aliens.

Can you prove it wrong?

For those not familiar with the Truman Show:

Truman Show

I tend to think of our reality and universe as an information processing devise for some intelligent designer or another. ;)
 
That is your right. You can believe in anything you want. However, there is a contradiction in that attributes of God as presented by most (not all) Christians, and the concept of an all powerful, all knowing and benevolent God, and the observations we see in the world. The explanations to try to attempt to reconcile those contradictions are insufficient, to say the least.

Again, show the contradiction under the given premises to false and it'S your show. Till then you are a true believer.
 
A few questions (these sort of go hand in hand):

If there is a God, why does human suffering take place (ie: cancer, AIDS, mental illnesses, innocent babies being killed by drunk drivers, etc.)?

If God truly loves us, why is there any human suffering at all?

Why does God not "intervene" and end all human suffering, especially amongst his followers?

Does human suffering even have anything to do with God?

Can God cure any/all suffering, if I draw real close to Him?

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against God here - these are simply questions I'm trying to answer for myself. Maybe some of you can help. And you can answer as many of my questions as you like - but you don't have to answer all of them at one time. Maybe you can provide a few questions/answers of your own, that I haven't even thought of. The topic here is Human Suffering.

Free will and a fallen world.

First of all, let's address free will. Free will is a requirement for love. God's wants us to love Him and without free will, we can't do that. Along with the free will to choose to love someone comes the free will to harm someone as well.

The fallen world is a result of our sin and our choice to reject God. All the disease and natural disasters are a direct result of the rejection. We CHOSE a path that removed us from His protection and placed us in the state we are currently in. Now we go back to free will again. - since God won't violate our free will, we are faced with the results of our rejection of God.
 
Free will and a fallen world.

First of all, let's address free will. Free will is a requirement for love. God's wants us to love Him and without free will, we can't do that. Along with the free will to choose to love someone comes the free will to harm someone as well.

The fallen world is a result of our sin and our choice to reject God. All the disease and natural disasters are a direct result of the rejection. We CHOSE a path that removed us from His protection and placed us in the state we are currently in. Now we go back to free will again. - since God won't violate our free will, we are faced with the results of our rejection of God.

Whether I agree with your post or not isn't really the point. That was very well said - and you've given me much to reflect on. Thanks for posting. :)
 
I tend to think of our reality and universe as an information processing devise for some intelligent designer or another. ;)

LoL...It would make a good movie!!
 
An excellent idea and one I'd love to hear you explain away..... I mean there are things that we find physically and mentally revolting. Why couldn't god simply have made the act of taking someone sexually against there will revolting? I mean, It appears he's done that with feces, right? We find it revolting and disgusting to touch and eat feces, but we know that this is something fairly universal in humans. Animals play with and eat there feces but humans (healthy humans anyway) avoid playing with and eating them. Why couldn't rape be equally as revolting?

Suddenly I am reminded of A Clockwork Orange......

What about or tendency to fear heights? Do we simply choose to fear heights? If it's part of our instinct, an instinct that god put there, isn't that influencing our free will? Why couldn't the act of rape be equally as frighting as standin on the edge of a cliff?

As someone whom is very familiar with concept of fear and being raped (won't say if I was raped or not), I understand completely where you're coming from. Thanks for all your posts in this thread.
 
As someone whom is very familiar with concept of fear and being raped (won't say if I was raped or not), I understand completely where you're coming from.


Thanks for all your posts in this thread.

I would guess in my life of 45 years about 1/2 of the women I've dated have had some sort of experience with rape, some much worse than others. So I have some small understanding of what you are talking about.

The idea that there is celestial, omnipotent and all knowing parent who waves his finger and doles punishment for evildoers only after an entire lifetime, is on it's face immoral. I like my perception of free will, but if I never had it I'd miss it about as much as I miss the ability to fly right now.

It's like the Matrix, do you think that if the Matrix was real, would anyone would miss the real world unless they knew it existed?

Hmmmm....Sacrifice free will for a world without pain suffering or misery and all I have to do is give up something that I'd never know I had?...DONE!

Oh yea, wait, didn't we already live there and get booted over some crazy story about an apple and a talking snake?

The idea that evil is necessary in order to measure virtue is proof of only one thing, that god is in fact a malevolent celestial dictator who's concocted a story that's convinced much of the world that the suffering he causes/ allows is "necessary" and "for our own good" all while convincing us that his self serving evil doing is in fact love and sacrifice.


It's a good think I don't believe in such a being, because that would be pretty depressing.
 
I would guess in my life of 45 years about 1/2 of the women I've dated have had some sort of experience with rape, some much worse than others. So I have some small understanding of what you are talking about.

The idea that there is celestial, omnipotent and all knowing parent who waves his finger and doles punishment for evildoers only after an entire lifetime, is on it's face immoral. I like my perception of free will, but if I never had it I'd miss it about as much as I miss the ability to fly right now.

It's like the Matrix, do you think that if the Matrix was real, would anyone would miss the real world unless they knew it existed?

Hmmmm....Sacrifice free will for a world without pain suffering or misery and all I have to do is give up something that I'd never know I had?...DONE!

Oh yea, wait, didn't we already live there and get booted over some crazy story about an apple and a talking snake?

The idea that evil is necessary in order to measure virtue is proof of only one thing, that god is in fact a malevolent celestial dictator who's concocted a story that's convinced much of the world that the suffering he causes/ allows is "necessary" and "for our own good" all while convincing us that his self serving evil doing is in fact love and sacrifice.


It's a good think I don't believe in such a being, because that would be pretty depressing.

Yes - and then (when bad stuff happens to us - as a child or an adult), they tell us to "forgive and forget, then we will be saved." Furthermore, they also say that being depressed and anxious over what happened solves no problem whatsoever (insinuating that it's our fault). In other words, what they are saying (to me) is "buck it up, take it like a man or else God will punish me." Huh? Stop me if I missed something, but isn't telling that to a child the worst form of abuse there is?

I'm just saying - to tell that to a child (especially one whom has been molested/raped) is the worst form of hypocrisy and abomination - at least in my eyes. No matter what my beliefs, I would never do that to a kid.

The real "punishment" is the act of being raped itself. Seems to me that IF there is a all powerful, all knowing and benevolent God, he would in fact prevent stuff like that.

Now.

If a theist can "solve" this problem for me and make logical sense while doing so, I'm all ears. If not, they have already been proven wrong because of this basic concept: "God" knows everything that is going to happen to me. He had my life planed eons ago before I was born. He has the time of my death fixed - as well as all the good and bad things that ever happened (or will happen) to me. He will welcome me into his "kingdom" when I die, as long as I embrace and believe in Him."

Question: Why would I "embrace" a parent like that. More specifically, why wouldn't I hate said parent and go on to "reject" Him.

Sorry, but that type of belief system is old and frankly codependent. And that's what they should be telling our kids/us. For, isn't honesty the best policy? Or, is it the best policy to keep collecting tithes on Sundays - while telling us that it's "for the lord, whom loves us more than we know?"

Lying to a child about where and what "God" is - no wonder human suffering does indeed exist.
 
Again, show the contradiction under the given premises to false and it'S your show. Till then you are a true believer.

Epicurus problem of evil exists, and the claim about 'Free Will' does not stop that from being relevant. So, the contradiction exists, despite your denial.
 
Here's the dogma: Man was given free will and so therefore sins. The consequences of sin are often suffering for oneself or for innocent people.

If there was no free will there would be no suffering. The original state of man was to live with God free from hunger, disease, pain, suffering, and death. But man, given free will, disobeyed God and so went out into the world where hunger, disease, and death are prevalent. For God to reverse this would mean the loss of man's free will.

While that sounds so neat and tidy. Your comments opens up all sorts of possibilities and questions.

Let's see now. Humans have free will - and then let's not forget about god's will, which is a supremely popular claim.

Bunches and bunches of people claim that god frequently intervenes. How would one distinguish and act of god's will verses a person's? And how can one know if god is purposely allowing an evil act to happen to one person while exercising his, her, it's will to prevent an evil act happening to another?

It's all a bit confusing, don't ya think?
 
While that sounds so neat and tidy. Your comments opens up all sorts of possibilities and questions.

Let's see now. Humans have free will - and then let's not forget about god's will, which is a supremely popular claim.

Bunches and bunches of people claim that god frequently intervenes. How would one distinguish and act of god's will verses a person's? And how can one know if god is purposely allowing an evil act to happen to one person while exercising his, her, it's will to prevent an evil act happening to another?

It's all a bit confusing, don't ya think?

It's a difficult problem.

The thing is that God intervenes, but His purpose is probably not what we think. The miraculous cure of a child stricken with a disease, for example, may not be just to save the child's life. God holds that child in the palm of His hand whether nor not it survives. The key may be to look at the effect that a miracle has on other people.

What was the purpose of the miracles Christ worked? He saved Lazarus from the grave while hundreds of thousands of other men were not saved from death. What it did was show people that Jesus is the way, and thereby their souls may be saved. To glorify God is the purpose because through God we are truly saved. Not just saved from this or that misfortune, but saved for all time.
 
It's a difficult problem.

The thing is that God intervenes, but His purpose is probably not what we think. The miraculous cure of a child stricken with a disease, for example, may not be just to save the child's life. God holds that child in the palm of His hand whether nor not it survives. The key may be to look at the effect that a miracle has on other people.

What was the purpose of the miracles Christ worked? He saved Lazarus from the grave while hundreds of thousands of other men were not saved from death. What it did was show people that Jesus is the way, and thereby their souls may be saved. To glorify God is the purpose because through God we are truly saved. Not just saved from this or that misfortune, but saved for all time.

What about Adolf Hitler when he was (allegedly) saved by a priest from an icy river at 4 years old, was that god? Or the claim that a British soldier, Warwickshire Pte Henry Tandey, spared Hitler's life in World War One when he could have killed him.

If Hitler was so close to death why didn't god just chose to exert the tiniest amount of influence here and let Hitler die? I suspect your answer might be that some alternate world where Hitler dies younger in his life might have been worse, but worse that what happened? Hard to imagine. Reminds me of the scene in Pulp Fiction where the guy fires his gun from a few feet away from Jewls (Samuel L Jackson) and Vincent Vega (Travolta) and hit's nothing. They are terrible immoral people doing something bad, but Jewls decides it's a bona fide god given miracle and turns over a new leaf....Which of course leads to one of the best scenes in movie history when, after his conversion someone tries to take his wallet (BMF) in a dinner, great movie.

Seems god is pretty indiscriminate with his "help".
 
Epicurus problem of evil exists, and the claim about 'Free Will' does not stop that from being relevant. So, the contradiction exists, despite your denial.

Yes, poor Epicurus. He thought he knew God, Evil and the Universe of it All. He should have read Kurt Gödel and learnt humility. ;)
 
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