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Human Suffering

RAMOSS said:
How do you know you are not playing a game of "SHoots and Ladders" with your life, where every card in the deck is already predetermined before you even pull the first card?.
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Because I accept reality.
 
Smart parents let their kids suffer the consequences of their small mistakes so they learn to avoid bigger mistakes, or so we hope.
If you really want to handicap your kids, make life easy for them. They will learn little, and do even less.
My uncle, and my youngest brother, both were babied by mommy, and they turned out to be worthless.

The more serious things that innocents suffer? Maybe some of those are tests to see if the rest of us step up and help, like we are told to do in Matthew ch. 25, or is it 24? What we do to, or for, the least among us, we do to, or for, God.

I know this sounds a bit simplistic, but it is how I see it......
 
Paleocon said:
Because I accept reality.
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I do not see evidence that your statement is factual. As a matter of fact, I see a lot of evidence that claim is inaccurate.
 
The notion that humanity has some kind of defect and thus "sins" is kind of funny, as clearly undermines the supposedly powerful and wise god who created us. That perfect plan fell apart almost immediately through the intervention of one crafty snake. God apparently really sucks at his job. And if people are inherently sinful, and yet are supposed to not be sinful, then we were made defective, and a designer who makes defective products is not a very good designer.

The suffering we experience comes mainly from external forces in nature. Sickness, hunger, injury... even the effects of being poor come from the scarcity in nature of the resources we need to survive. Plenty of it also comes from human greed denying access to the not-so-scarce resources, but even greed can be accounted for from an evolutionary perspective, as a extreme reaction against scarcity. Obviously, these have no root cause in human activity. We don't cause tidal waves (except via climate change) or earthquakes (except via fracking) or even just stuff falling on us. The world is not always safe, and the harm we suffer from it makes a lot more sense if it is indifferent to us than if it is designed around and for us.

The rest of our suffering comes from the fact that we simply don't always get along. Loneliness and betrayal in personal relationships come from conflicting priorities and often mutually injured pride (a reasonable amount of self-centeredness and ego is necessary for survival, of course). None of this has anything to do with "sin" or "rebelling against god". That's just part of being a person with wants and ideas and feelings. There's no need for anything supernatural to explain us. It's just nature. Good people with good intentions hurt other good people with good intentions all the time. Desperate people do a lot of hurting, too. It's only a very small minority that really acts with any malice. Life is, to some degree, a competition. That's really all you need to know to explain it.
 
RAMOSS said:
Can you show there is free will?? How do you know you are not playing a game of "SHoots and Ladders" with your life, where every card in the deck is already predetermined before you even pull the first card?.
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Shoots and Ladders, or Snakes and Ladders is played with a die.
 
zyzygy said:
Shoots and Ladders, or Snakes and Ladders is played with a die.
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Which is the one that is played with a card deck??
 
Nightrider said:
A few questions (these sort of go hand in hand):

If there is a God, why does human suffering take place (ie: cancer, AIDS, mental illnesses, innocent babies being killed by drunk drivers, etc.)?

If God truly loves us, why is there any human suffering at all?

Why does God not "intervene" and end all human suffering, especially amongst his followers?

Does human suffering even have anything to do with God?

Can God cure any/all suffering, if I draw real close to Him?

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against God here - these are simply questions I'm trying to answer for myself. Maybe some of you can help. And you can answer as many of my questions as you like - but you don't have to answer all of them at one time. Maybe you can provide a few questions/answers of your own, that I haven't even thought of. The topic here is Human Suffering.
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Why does water boil?
 
Nightrider said:
A few questions (these sort of go hand in hand):

If there is a God, why does human suffering take place (ie: cancer, AIDS, mental illnesses, innocent babies being killed by drunk drivers, etc.)?

If God truly loves us, why is there any human suffering at all?

Why does God not "intervene" and end all human suffering, especially amongst his followers?

Does human suffering even have anything to do with God?

Can God cure any/all suffering, if I draw real close to Him?

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against God here - these are simply questions I'm trying to answer for myself. Maybe some of you can help. And you can answer as many of my questions as you like - but you don't have to answer all of them at one time. Maybe you can provide a few questions/answers of your own, that I haven't even thought of. The topic here is Human Suffering.
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Suffering comes as a consequence of the very first sin - the banishment from Eden.



This article below is a long read.

What does the Bible say about suffering?

The Bible is startlingly realistic when it comes to the problem of endured suffering. For one thing, the Bible devotes an entire book to dealing with the problem. This book concerns a man named Job.

Christian theism is, in fact, the only worldview which can consistently make sense of the problem of evil and suffering. Christians serve a God who has lived on this earth and endured trauma, temptation, bereavement, torture, hunger, thirst, persecution and even execution. The cross of Christ can be regarded as the ultimate manifestation of God’s justice. When asked how much God cares about the problem of evil and suffering, the Christian God can point to the cross and say, “That much.” Christ experienced rejection from God, saying, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” He experienced the same suffering as many people do today who are feeling isolated from God’s favor and love.

Read more: What does the Bible say about suffering?
 
Paleocon said:
Which is why we should stop it.
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Indeed, it should be stopped. I'm glad you've come around to my position. Which brings us back to the topic at hand: God failing to do what ought to be done, failing to stop what should be stopped.

Paleocon said:
Whereas preventing them from wanting to rape, would affect their free will.
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Only to your muddled understanding of what free will actually means. Regardless, it's irrelevant. No one said anything about stopping people from wanting to harm. Only stopping people from committing harm.
 
LowDown said:
No, it would only work that way if God were to reverse it for everyone and then prevented us from erring any more.
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Reverse? What are you talking about? No one's asking God to do anything above and beyond what we ask the police to do: to stop malicious violence as best you can. Either God is completely incompetent or he's immoral. (Or, of course, he doesn't exist at all)
 
RAMOSS said:
Which is the one that is played with a card deck??
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I have no idea. Are you referring to a board game that is played with a deck of cards instead of dice?
 
the_recruit said:
Indeed, it should be stopped. I'm glad you've come around to my position. Which brings us back to the topic at hand: God failing to do what ought to be done, failing to stop what should be stopped.
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Which obviously is a deliberate misinterpretation of what I said.

Only to your muddled understanding of what free will actually means. Regardless, it's irrelevant. No one said anything about stopping people from wanting to harm. Only stopping people from committing harm.
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so what are you saying? God should have altered the laws of nature to make rape impossible?
 
zyzygy said:
I have no idea. Are you referring to a board game that is played with a deck of cards instead of dice?
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Yes. A board came with card instead of dice.
 
Paleocon said:
so what are you saying? God should have altered the laws of nature to make rape impossible?
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An excellent idea and one I'd love to hear you explain away..... I mean there are things that we find physically and mentally revolting. Why couldn't god simply have made the act of taking someone sexually against there will revolting? I mean, It appears he's done that with feces, right? We find it revolting and disgusting to touch and eat feces, but we know that this is something fairly universal in humans. Animals play with and eat there feces but humans (healthy humans anyway) avoid playing with and eating them. Why couldn't rape be equally as revolting?

Suddenly I am reminded of A Clockwork Orange......

What about or tendency to fear heights? Do we simply choose to fear heights? If it's part of our instinct, an instinct that god put there, isn't that influencing our free will? Why couldn't the act of rape be equally as frighting as standin on the edge of a cliff?
 
csbrown28 said:
Animals play with and eat there feces but humans (healthy humans anyway) avoid playing with and eating them. Why couldn't rape be equally as revolting?
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Just like there are perversed humans who find sexual gratification in eating feces and urine, there are also depraved humans who like to rape and inflict pain.
 
csbrown28 said:
An excellent idea and one I'd love to hear you explain away..... I mean there are things that we find physically and mentally revolting. Why couldn't god simply have made the act of taking someone sexually against there will revolting? I mean, It appears he's done that with feces, right? We find it revolting and disgusting to touch and eat feces, but we know that this is something fairly universal in humans. Animals play with and eat there feces but humans (healthy humans anyway) avoid playing with and eating them. Why couldn't rape be equally as revolting?

Suddenly I am reminded of A Clockwork Orange......

What about or tendency to fear heights? Do we simply choose to fear heights? If it's part of our instinct, an instinct that god put there, isn't that influencing our free will? Why couldn't the act of rape be equally as frighting as standin on the edge of a cliff?
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Rape is revolting. But just as there are some who eat feces, there are some who rape.
 
Paleocon said:
Which obviously is a deliberate misinterpretation of what I said.
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Now you're waffling again. Should child rape be stopped or shouldn't it? Make up your mind.


Paleocon said:
so what are you saying? God should have altered the laws of nature to make rape impossible?
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That's one way. Or he could just swoop down from the heavens and intervene like a celestial police officer. Or lift victims 'souls' out of their bodies temporarily so they don't have to experience the suffering. There are a million different ways to do it.
 
the_recruit said:
Now you're waffling again. Should child rape be stopped or shouldn't it? Make up your mind.




That's one way. Or he could just swoop down from the heavens and intervene like a celestial police officer. Or lift victims 'souls' out of their bodies temporarily so they don't have to experience the suffering. There are a million different ways to do it.
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In his infinite wisdom, God sees that preventing such evils would cause greater evils to result.

What exactly are you trying to argue here?
 
Paleocon said:
In his infinite wisdom, God sees that preventing such evils would cause greater evils to result.
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lol. So child rape should not be stopped? Round and round we go.....

Paleocon said:
What exactly are you trying to argue here?
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That the existence of suffering precludes an omnipotent benevolent God.
 
the_recruit said:
lol. So child rape should not be stopped? Round and round we go.....
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We should stop it. If you do not understand the difference between us and God, then I'm afraid I can't help you.



That the existence of suffering precludes an omnipotent benevolent God.
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So your claiming to know better than God? Got it.
 
Nightrider said:
A few questions (these sort of go hand in hand):

If there is a God, why does human suffering take place (ie: cancer, AIDS, mental illnesses, innocent babies being killed by drunk drivers, etc.)?

If God truly loves us, why is there any human suffering at all?

Why does God not "intervene" and end all human suffering, especially amongst his followers?

Does human suffering even have anything to do with God?

Can God cure any/all suffering, if I draw real close to Him?

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against God here - these are simply questions I'm trying to answer for myself. Maybe some of you can help. And you can answer as many of my questions as you like - but you don't have to answer all of them at one time. Maybe you can provide a few questions/answers of your own, that I haven't even thought of. The topic here is Human Suffering.
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Simple answer? This world (in its current form, at least) was never meant to be perfect. Only the next world holds that distinction.

The primary purpose of suffering is to test a person, so that they might learn and grow from the experience, and become closer to God.

Flesh is mortal, and temporary. The soul lasts forever.
 
Paleocon said:
We should stop it. If you do not understand the difference between us and God, then I'm afraid I can't help you.
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There's a difference between us and God but there is no difference is what is being asked of them to do. Child rape ought to be stopped. Period. It doesn't matter who does it because the "who" is irrelevant to the aspects of reality that make child rape wrong, that make child rape something worth stopping.

Suppose Person A is about to harm Person B, but a police officer intervenes and prevents it from happening. This is a good thing. Now suppose instead of the police officer, it was God who intervened in this one instance. Why would this change the rightness of the intervention? Why is it no longer a good thing that Person A was prevented from harming Person B? What "greater evil" would be actualized that wouldn't be actualized when the police officer intervened?

Paleocon said:
So your claiming to know better than God? Got it.
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I'm claiming to know better than people who speak incoherence and cling to ancient fables that are so stupid even little children see through them.
 
the_recruit said:
There's a difference between us and God but there is no difference is what is being asked of them to do. Child rape ought to be stopped. Period. It doesn't matter who does it because the "who" is irrelevant to the aspects of reality that make child rape wrong, that make child rape something worth stopping.

Suppose Person A is about to harm Person B, but a police officer intervenes and prevents it from happening. This is a good thing. Now suppose instead of the police officer, it was God who intervened in this one instance. Why would this change the rightness of the intervention? Why is it no longer a good thing that Person A was prevented from harming Person B? What "greater evil" would be actualized that wouldn't be actualized when the police officer intervened?
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I don't know. Why don't you ask God?

Here's a possible answer:

It increases our virtue to prevent such evils. If God prevented them, then we would be deprived of an opportunity for virtue.

I'm claiming to know better than people who speak incoherence and cling to ancient fables that are so stupid even little children see through them.
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Like atheism.
 
tosca1 said:
Just like there are perversed humans who find sexual gratification in eating feces and urine, there are also depraved humans who like to rape and inflict pain.
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I suspect that the percentage of humans that have eaten feces is a tiny fraction of the humans that have committed rape. I'd settle for rape and eating feces to be the same, that is, if god made rape as repulsive as eating feces and we committed rape as a specie as much as we eat feces as a specie, I'd think that would be a great move in the right direction.
 
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