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What Is The Difference Between Prayer And Witchcraft?

Nilly said:
Oh wow a book said it? Must be true.
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That's stupid.

The New Testament in the 1st century wasn't a "book," but over two dozen independent and separate manuscripts floating around different localities at different times, being read by many different audiences.

That's independent confirmation from multiple sources.

So in the future please make a better argument rather than waiving your fairy book around like you made some impressive point.
 
Logicman said:
That's stupid.

The New Testament in the 1st century wasn't a "book," but over two dozen independent and separate manuscripts floating around different localities at different times, being read by many different audiences.

That's independent confirmation from multiple sources.

So in the future please make a better argument rather than waiving your fairy book around like you made some impressive point.
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I'm talking about your documentation of miracles. You posted a book from amazon that documents what people saw. My fairy book does the same. In fact it has multiple accounts of fairies from many people, whilst also describing real places. That's all the criteria you ever put forward.
 
Nilly said:
I'm talking about your documentation of miracles. You posted a book from amazon.
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Actually it's two books, but the fact is that miracles have been reported for ages and there's testimonies all over the net.
 
Logicman said:
Actually it's two books, but the fact is that miracles have been reported for ages and there's testimonies all over the net.
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Fairies have been reported for ages and there are testimonies all over the net.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the fundamental difference between prayer and witchcraft? Obviously excluding "one of them works," since that will lead to a wild goose chase over "which one."

In specific terms, how is it fundamentally different to beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf and... beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf?
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If witchcraft is similar to praying (I don't know much about it)....the difference would be the spiritual being to whom the prayers are addressed to. In witchcraft, the prayers are being made, sometimes unwittingly, to the devil.




Examples of occult practices are astrology, witchcraft (Wicca), the black arts, fortune telling, magic (both black and white), Ouija boards, Tarot cards, spiritism, parapsychology,

Occult practices are controlled by demons, who offer just enough information to keep their victims intrigued, while exerting more and more control over gullible hearts and minds.

The danger of occult practices cannot be overstated. God strictly warned the Israelites against being involved with the occult (Leviticus 20:6). The pagan nations that surrounded Israel were steeped in divination, sorcery, witchcraft, and spiritism, and this is one reason why God gave His people the authority to drive them out of the land (Deuteronomy 18:9–14). The New Testament says that the rise of interest in the occult is a sign of the end of the age: “The [Holy] Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons” (1 Timothy 4:1).


What is the occult?
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
If someone asked you to pray for someone else's death, would you do it? Does that satisfy God's desire for you to be of maximum usefulness to the people around you? If your wife asked you to beg God to kill her boss, would that count?
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:lol:


Based on what Soot said:

Originally Posted by soot View Post
Also understand that if my wife had cancer and asked me to pray with her for God to remove it I certainly would, because I believe that part of what God wants from me is to be of maximum usefulness to the people around me. I would pray with her asking God to remove the cancer, but I wouldn't labor under the false illusion that God would do what I asked simply because I asked.
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Where did your view come from? How on earth do you equate Soot's response to that?

First of all, Soot is talking about praying for the recovery of his wife....not killing anyone! :lol:


There's more layers to what Soot had said when he referred to maximum usefulness, imho.
Praying WITH his wife would no doubt bring some solace, and comfort among other things to not only his wife, but also to the loved ones who pray with her.
 
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Nilly said:
Fairies have been reported for ages and there are testimonies all over the net.
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Fine, then you believe in them and see how all that works out for you on Judgment Day.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
So, functionally, there is no difference in the physical/mental act of prayer and casting a spell. The actions themselves, not the results. Would this be a fair statement?
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I'm having a hard time seeing your attempt at comparison. What do they do when they cast a spell? Who exactly is casting the spell?
In movies, it is the witches that I see who actually cast spells.

So....if Soot prays to God to make his wife recover - do you see Soot actually the one who's removing that cancer (like a witch casting her spell)?
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
I'm sure soldiers are in this position all the time - actively praying for the other guy to die.
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Perhaps, had you been the soldier you'd be doing what you say they do. "Please, make him die, not me."



I tell you.....if the soldier is a Christian, he'd actively be praying for anything and everything,
EXCEPT for the other guy to die instead.

Christians know better than to pray for someone's demise or ill fortune.

Most soldiers know what could happen in the battlefield. A lot of Christians would more likely try to ensure that they'd made their peace with God, that they'd be ready to die anytime.

That's the difference with Christians and non-believers. Christians are more concerned with the after life.
 
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Gonzo Rodeo said:
According to the argument at hand, this is an inappropriate use of prayer. Unless explicitly asking what God's will is in a particular matter, any other use of prayer is inappropriate. That is the argument on the table. This is the premise that makes prayer different than any type of witchcraft, since it has nothing to do with help/intercession for the individual but rather a communication with God to see how God wants you to handle something. This means everyone who prays for anything other than Gods advice is actually practicing a type of witchcraft according to given definition of witchcraft in this thread and the logical conclusion that follows from the premise.
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There are many kinds of prayers.

But yes, prayer is communication with God.

That being said, if one communicates with another - surely one can ask? There is no harm in asking, is there?
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
This means everyone who prays for anything other than Gods advice is actually practicing a type of witchcraft according to given definition of witchcraft in this thread and the logical conclusion that follows from the premise.
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What exactly is the given definition of witchcraft on this thread?



One can ask awful things to happen to people with witchcraft. That's not the way with Christians and their God.

Anyone who has a small understanding of Christianity would never think to equate the prayers given to the Christian God with witchcraft.
 
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tosca1 said:
What exactly is the given definition of witchcraft on this thread?



One can ask awful things to happen to people with witchcraft. That's not the way with Christians and their God.

Anyone who has a small understanding of Christianity would never think to equate the prayers given to the Christian God with witchcraft.
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I had thought witchcraft referred to the belief or "practice" that humans had the ability to effect the external world through the use of thought, the spoke word or ritual. A fertility dance or voodoo for example.

But more broadly, couldn't you say that prayer fits that scope of the pray-er thought his actions had material effect?
 
Quag said:
Satanists do not practice witchcraft any more than Christians
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They do demon summons.... thats witchcraft....christians don't...And it's all about obtaining your own power, not only Feeding it through Satan.
Satanism is a broad term referring to a group of social movements with diverse ideological and philosophical beliefs. It can encompass witchcraft, which in my example, is what it did...not al satanist by any means....that's why I didn'tuse the term satanist, or nor did I use the term Wiccan
 
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Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the fundamental difference between prayer and witchcraft?
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Nothing.

They both make direct or indirect claims that can't be proved, therefore they are false by definition.
 
celticwar17 said:
They do demon summons.... thats witchcraft
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Glendower:
I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur:
Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the fundamental difference between prayer and witchcraft? Obviously excluding "one of them works," since that will lead to a wild goose chase over "which one."

In specific terms, how is it fundamentally different to beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf and... beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf?
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One prays in witchcraft, so what are you asking?
 
brothern said:
I had thought witchcraft referred to the belief or "practice" that humans had the ability to effect the external world through the use of thought, the spoke word or ritual. A fertility dance or voodoo for example.

But more broadly, couldn't you say that prayer fits that scope of the pray-er thought his actions had material effect?
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The question posed by the OP doesn't sound right: what is the difference between prayer and witchcraft?

Prayer, according to the author, is used in witchcraft. It is therefore, a tool.
It is a part of the process to perform witchcraft. That is the answer already! :lol:

So I don't know what he's really on about prayers and witchcraft!
 
Here is what wikipedia says about witchcraft:

Witchcraft (also called witchery or spellcraft) broadly means the practice of, and belief in, magical skills and abilities that are able to be exercised individually, by designated social groups, or by persons with the necessary esoteric secret knowledge.
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So, the practicing witch (the "prayee" :lol:)..... is able to have and practice her own magical skills and abilities. Thus I asked the author if he expected the analogy of Soot (who prayed for the recovery of his wife) to gain the magical ability to pluck or remove the cancer from his wife!



Anyway, do witches really pray? I asked because, according to wikipedia:

In anthropological terminology, a "witch" differs from a sorcerer in that they do not use physical tools or actions to curse; their maleficium is perceived as extending from some intangible inner quality, and the person may be unaware that they are a "witch", or may have been convinced of their own nature by the suggestion of others
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Witchcraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, their alleged "skill" is built-in! That's how I understand it reading that. They've had it in them already!


What is malefecium?

Maleficium as a Latin term means "wrongdoing" or "mischief",[1] and is used[by whom?] to describe malevolent, dangerous, or harmful magic, "evildoing,"[2] or "malevolent sorcery".
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The association witchcraft (or any occultism) would have with religion - particularly Christianity - would be to represent evil in the never-ending battle between good and evil.
 
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Gonzo Rodeo said:
What is the fundamental difference between prayer and witchcraft? Obviously excluding "one of them works," since that will lead to a wild goose chase over "which one."

In specific terms, how is it fundamentally different to beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf and... beseech a spiritual power to intercede on your behalf?
Click to expand...

On a lighter note, would you say Richard Dawkins dabbles in witchcraft?


Richard Dawkins, Famous Atheist, Appeals To God On Radio Program


Richard Dawkins, Famous Atheist, Appeals To God On Radio Program
 
tosca1 said:
Here is what wikipedia says about witchcraft:



So, the practicing witch (the "prayee" [emoji38])..... is able to have and practice her own magical skills and abilities. Thus I asked the author if he expected the analogy of Soot (who prayed for the recovery of his wife) to gain the magical ability to pluck or remove the cancer from his wife!



Anyway, do witches really pray? I asked because, according to wikipedia:


Witchcraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, their alleged "skill" is built-in! That's how I understand it reading that. They've had it in them already!


What is malefecium?






The association witchcraft (or any occultism) would have with religion - particularly Christianity - would be to represent evil in the never-ending battle between good and evil.
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Good and evil are no more at war than are posative & negative gravity fields.
 
tosca1 said:
On a lighter note, would you say Richard Dawkins dabbles in witchcraft?


Richard Dawkins, Famous Atheist, Appeals To God On Radio Program


Richard Dawkins, Famous Atheist, Appeals To God On Radio Program
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Obviously not. Saying, "Oh, God, what was the name of that thing again..." Is clearly not an invocation. Further, that article you linked is from the blog section, and attempts to make a comparison between two thirds of Christians who don't know the one word title of the first book in their Jesus story (arguably the most important) vs an old man who can't remember word-for-word the sixteen word subtitle of a book, which he basically got right. Thats like saying someone cannot be a Kubrick fan if they remember "Dr Strangelove... and something about loving a bomb or something".

Richard Dawkins is not a pope, and Darwinism is not a religion.
 
Jerry said:
One prays in witchcraft, so what are you asking?
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tosca1 said:
The question posed by the OP doesn't sound right: what is the difference between prayer and witchcraft?

Prayer, according to the author, is used in witchcraft. It is therefore, a tool.
It is a part of the process to perform witchcraft. That is the answer already! :lol:

So I don't know what he's really on about prayers and witchcraft!
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The act of "casting a spell" or trying to affect the physical world with supernatural power is no different, fundamentally, than praying to God to do those things. Invoking a spiritual being to intercede on your behalf or to give you something is functionally the same irrespective of whom the request is sent to.
 
tosca1 said:
Anyone who has a small understanding of Christianity would never think to equate the prayers given to the Christian God with witchcraft.
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Anyone who has a small understanding of Christians knows they will never equate their superstition with other superstitions, even when they are functionally the same.

Prayer is witchcraft. Exorcisms are witchcraft. Holding mass is witchcraft. Transubstantiation is witchcraft. It's all magic spells and ceremonies that invoke a spiritual being.

All gods are magic. Claiming your God isn't magic because magic isn't real but your God is....that's a circular argument. Functionally, it's all the same.
 
Goshin said:
Actually that would be inaccurate.

"The actions themselves"... in most traditions (as I noted above, we're covering a lot of ground with a broad brush here), "spellcasting" typically involves some rather elaborate rituals, with various specified materials, symbols, and preparations required, as well as any verbal invocation or spoken cantrip. Also spellcasting may or may not involve the invocation of any deity or supernatural personality.

Prayer, in modern Christian use, typically has no absolute requirement for any external trappings whatsoever, and is directed at God alone. (I leave aside arguments about Catholics praying to saints, which is a complex subject as many of them say they don't actually PRAY to saints per se... but as I am not Catholic I feel unqualified to say much about that practice.)
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...ever been to a Catholic mass? Censors. Sing-song magic words. Transubstantiation. Blessings. Symbolic hand gestures. Rituals. Reading from the grimoire.

This is all before the doctrine of intercession in the pantheon of Mary and the saints (what a great band name).
 
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